Mystery plaque dumped in Hornchurch, Essex

A possible for William King, another forename swap.

From SDGW
L/14691 Thomas William King 4th Middlesex. born Holborn, Midx., enlisted Mill Hill, Midx., Killed in action 8/10/1914

Details from De Ruvigny:

 

There is a service record for 14691 Thomas William King 4th Middlesex, on Ancestry. Another pre-war (October 1913) enlist. Parents given as Thomas and Maggie, 8 Derby Road, Upper Edmonton, and 3 brothers.

 

Hi all,
Guess we just carry on trawling then eh? When I saw we I suppose I really mean you - all I have access to is CWGC!
I must say your ready acceptance of the challenge to find all the guys listed almost brought a little lump to my throat

I have spoken to Pete Keane and he knows the Edmonton area very well. That really does seem to be the key to this mystery - the very small area that appears to connect these guys even if perhaps not initially evident. The 'Gas Works' link might be helpful but Pete thinks many of the names may just be local lads who perhaps played in a local football team or similar and may have no connection with the gas works.

Give me a couple of hours and I will try to narrow down some of the more common names from CWGC and post here for you bloodhounds to follow up.

We seem to be on a roll with this now and perhaps the more difficult names can be sorted reasonably quickly. If you don't mind I will still act as 'collator' and update 'the file' as and when new information comes in. Due to the file size now I will seperate it into 17 individual ones so we can mark the 'solved' ones and concentrate on 'unsolved'. Anyone have a suggetion how to approach this differently?

I will pass on the theory to Met Police but I think they already have a pretty good clue on this.


That's 17 poppies, one for each of our guys.

Cheers all,

Mike

 

Errrrr..... Sorry that was supposed to be 17 poppies!

M

 

Mike - I have one reservation about this being a group of veterans of a sporting club or similar...surely the names would be accompanied by an immediately-local reference that the surviving club members would be interested in, like "captain 19** season", "champion 19**", "cupwinning team 19** season" - that sort of thing???

 

Mike - I have one reservation about this being a group of veterans of a sporting club or similar...surely the names would be accompanied by an immediately-local reference that the surviving club members would be interested in, like "captain 19** season", "champion 19**", "cupwinning team 19** season" - that sort of thing???

Maybe they were not captains or cup winners. Bullets, snipers, artillery shells, disease and trench mortars have no particular preference.

 

I think the connection is the gas works social/sports club, not the gas works itself.

At its height the club had 1300 members, but no way did the company employ that many, so I think it very possible that other clubs used the facility. (I have looked at Hotspur Cricket Club, and Hotspur FC but they dont fit the bill for the venue.)

Can anyone tell me the occupation of Thomas King (father) as given by Geoff above?

Also, I'm sure the Tottenham Rifle Volunteers, based in Northumberland Park, became a Battalion of the Middx Regt, but i'm not sure which one.

Regards

Pete

 

Phylo - perhaps they adopted the CWGC attitude - all men equal (officer or not) so all get same headstone. Maybe they didn't want to identify one individual as a 'superstar' to the detriment of another perhaps less accomplished.
Could be another reason also. We know there is at least 1 other plaque of identical pattern (until WW2 names were added) so perhaps whoever cast it used a standard format and it couldn't accommodate such individual additions.

Mike

 

Maybe they were not captains or cup winners. Bullets, snipers, artillery shells, disease and trench mortars have no particular preference.


This is of course true...

Maybe they didn't want to identify one individual as a 'superstar' to the detriment of another perhaps less accomplished.


...but over the years I've seen a fair few "club" war memorials, and they're usually very up-front about commemorating their contributions to the club/organisation at any level when alive.

 

Well hopefully we should find out a bit more tomorrow - sorry, today now.
Pete Keane (a more suitably named chap I have yet to meet) is expecting some info from the possible site in Edmonton.
Sorry Pete, had to make the simile with Keen in 'Carry on up the Khyber' - no offense meant mate. You appear to be a real terrier when you get your teeth into something like this and from our chat on the phone last night I know you wouldn't disagree.
Anyone have any contacts near Warrington? Pete has found a potential mine of info there but perhaps I should let him explain.

Now back to the 17 new files for me I think.

Thanks all,

Mike

 

DOH!
I was just about to sign out and get back to sorting the files when I thought 'what do these little boxes at top of screen do?'
I now hope to have turned pop-up blocker OFF and appear to be able to upload photos!
So (hopefully) here is a pic of the War Memorial in Hornchurch.
As you can (hope) see it's not easy to dump something there as it is on a main road - pic taken from across the road - and the plaque appears to have been dropped there overnight 18/19 Feb 2010. I won't use the word DUMPED as I feel it was done with some sensitivity.

Mike

 

Anyone have any contacts near Warrington? Pete has found a potential mine of info there but perhaps I should let him explain.

Mike

Try a PM to member Stephen Nulty

 

At its height the club had 1300 members,

Pete

Was that during The Great War period? I would expect something like 40 casualties or more from this number, probably more, since they would be relatively young and fit and have a higher than average enlistment.

 

Cheers for that Geoff,
Got to go out for a few hours, will get back here asap.

Regards,

Mike

 

Geoff,

There were 3 plaques removed from the Memorial Hall at Tottenham, one each side of the front door, each one approx 45cm wide by 200cm tall, and a third one which was mounted one a concrete block which had a memorial flower stand on top - its this last one I am awaiting the measurements for - in addition there was a memorial bench.

I've been out today (sunlight....) but am going to make some more calls shortly.

I will pm Stephen Nulty once we know we are a little further forward, thanks for the pointer.


tmm
Out of interest, I looked up James Edward Wellman's father on the 1901 census - His occupation is Gas Meter Tester

I think he worked for T.Glover & Co. They were next to the gas works, and manufactured gas meters.
I noticed that James's brother worked at the Sparklet factory, they were also based to the south side of Angel road, probably where the superstore is now.
I cant find the sand pits that James worked at, they are probably on the lea valley side of the angel road, but the museum at Bruce Castle are looking into it for me - if they can find a company name it will be another little avenue to explore.

Regards

Pete

 

Pete, good stuff.
The dimensions for 'our' plaque are:
Width 40" (1016mm)
Height 25" (635mm)

Just to update - Hornchurch Police now have a picture of the plaque together with dimensions and leads to the Broomfield Park and 'Gas Works' sports club possible locations. There are a couple of people looking into the Broomfield Park option and they will be responding to Hornchurch RBL President (original finder) who will advise me if he gets anything from them.

Mike

 

Is there any possibility that these lads could have been Territorial Soldiers?

The reason I ask is that there was a Drill Hall used by a Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment in Park Lane, Tottenham, which is just below the area we are looking at.

I doubt its linked, but i dont want to rule any other possibilities out.

Pete

 

I cant find the sand pits that James worked at, they are probably on the lea valley side of the angel road, but the museum at Bruce Castle are looking into it for me - if they can find a company name it will be another little avenue to explore.

Regards
Pete


Just been looking at Kelly's directory for Middx., 1914.

Great resource, link here:

Historical Directories

Found North London Ballast and Sand Co Ltd., Sand Merchants, Rays Road.

Quite a bit on military in there also.

 

Geoff, thanks - spent the early hours puzzling over that one, and they are at the end of the road!

Using the aerial on multimap you can still see the area used by the company.

 

duplicate post.