Mystery plaque dumped in Hornchurch, Essex

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by Mike L, Mar 1, 2010.

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  1. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Below the CWGC listings for Edward Windsor:

    WINDSOR, E. 8668 Private, York and Lancaster Regiment.
    Died 13/09/1915. No address.
    K. 28. KEMMEL CHATEAU MILITARY CEMETERY.

    WINDSOR, E. 3848 Private, Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment).
    Died 12/11/1915. No address.
    III. A. 10. LONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY


    WINDSOR, E. 16201 Private, Dorsetshire Regiment.
    Died 19/11/1916. No address.
    B. 11. REDAN RIDGE CEMETERY No.3, BEAUMONT-HAMEL

    WINDSOR, E. 204509 Private, King's Shropshire Light Infantry.
    Died 28/08/1917 Age 32. Son of Thomas and Mary Windsor, of Bolton; husband of Emilia Windsor, of Thursfield Villa, Newchapel, Stoke-on-Trent.
    I. V. 16. PHILOSOPHE BRITISH CEMETERY, MAZINGARBE

    WINDSOR, EDWARD JOHN. 10072 Private Bedfordshire Regiment.
    Died 20/12/1914 Age 20. Son of Edward and Florence Windsor of 161, Ossington Buildings, Marylebone, London.
    Panel 31 and 33. YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

    WINDSOR, E. J. 102 076 Private, Machine Gun Corps (Infantry).
    Died 24/06/1918. No address.
    D. 6. SARRALBE MILITARY CEMETERY.

    WINDSOR, E. W. 60529 Private Lancashire Fusiliers.
    Died 02/09/1918. No address.
    I. A. 14. LE GRAND BEAUMART BRITISH CEMETERY, STEENWERCK.


    So not much help there.


    From SDGW
    =========

    8688 Edward, Y&LR, born Edmonton, enlisted Stratford, Essex residence Edmonton.

    3848 Ernest, WRR, born Knaresborough, Yorks., enlisted Huddersfield, residend Bradford, Yorks.

    16201 Edward Richard, Dorset Reg. born Bow, Essex, enlisted Poplar, Essex, residence Bow.

    204509 Everest, SLI, born Bolton, enlisted West Didsbury, N. Manchester.

    10072 Edward, Beds Reg, born Shoreditch, Middx. enlisted Bedford, residence Shoreditch.

    102076 Edward James, MGC, born Holloway, Middx, enlisted Holloway, residence Islington.

    60529 Edgar William, Lanc. Fus., born Cardiff, enlisted Cardiff.


    I amazes me only 2 of listed have age or address known in the file.:(


    See:
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/geoffs-search-engine/24148-next-kin-why-3.html#post265618
     
  2. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Cheers Geoff, that certainly seems to lessen the 'likelies' (as opposed to 'possibles').
    Any 'ins' for RN and RM service in WW2? 2 of the possible DYERS are RN (seems unlikely - Isle of Wight) and RM, no address given. If we could list those as 'unlikely it would only leave the Sussex Regt guy to track down.
    If we could get an address for him and it appears to be outside of our prime area I would be reasonably happy to settle on the Edmonton address as our guy.

    Thanks for your continued help mate,

    Best regards,

    Mike
     
  3. At Home Dad (Returning)

    At Home Dad (Returning) Well-Known Member

    Incredible amount of work done here by you all, fantastic.

    I did make the Essex Western Front Association aware of the plaque about a week ago, dont know if they made contact with you yet

    All the best and, again, a bloody good effort!
     
  4. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    ....it would only leave the Sussex Regt guy to track down.
    If we could get an address for him and it appears to be outside of our prime area I would be reasonably happy to settle on the Edmonton address as our guy.



    Soldier Died WW2 would give his place of birth, but might not help much, as folk did move. I don't have a copy of this, some forum members may have it.
     
  5. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    British Army roll of honour transcription on Ancestry for Stanley Cecil Dyer gives "London (not otherwise specified)" for both birthplace and residence. Not sure that helps much.
     
  6. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Afternoon all,

    Pete Keane - had a response from Beckington:

    Might I suggest that you follow this lead up, or contact the RBL? If yo have no joy, then come back to me at that point.
    Kind regards,
    Rev. Andrew Chalkley
    Rector: Beckington with Standerwick, Berkley, Rodden, Lullington with Orchardleigh

    So could I take you up on your kind offer of a visit to Taunton? Note: Rev. Chalkley has not actually said the Parish records and stored there. Thanks Pete.
     
  7. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    At Home Dad - couldn't agree more. I am very grateful to everyone who has helped in trying to get to the bottom of this little piece of history! I haven't heard from the WFA yet.

    Geoff, tmm, Thanks for looking into that. Will have to keep it on the 'to do' list.

    I will try to narrow down a couple of the other GWGC listings this afternoon. Nothing heard from Police yet.

    Cheers,

    Mike
     
  8. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Back to CHARLES BIRD I am afraid chaps.:(

    CWGC WW1 listings for: Bird, C.
    57 listings: starting with Charles and trying to narrow down by Regt/address.
    1. Bird, Charles. Bedfordshire Regt. No address.
    2. Bird, Charles. Lt, Royal Field Artillery. Shoeburyness, Essex.
    3. Bird, Charles. Suffolk Regt. Mile End, London.
    4. Bird, C. Royal Horse Artillery. No address.
    5. Bird, C. D. London Regt, Prince of Wales Own Civil Service Rifles. Stoke Newington, London.
    6. Bird, Charles Edward. London Regt (Queen Victoria’s Rifles). Upper Edmonton, London.
    7. Bird, Charles Edwin. 2nd Lt The Essex Regt. NOK address India.
    8. Bird, Charles Henry. The Rifle Brigade. Bromley, Bow, London.
    9. Bird, Charles James. London Regt, Prince of Wales Own Civil Service Rifles. Hammersmith, London.
    10. Bird, Charles Josiah. Duke Of Cornwall’s Light Infantry. Camberwell, London.
    11. Bird, Charles William. Royal Engineers. Waltham Abbey, Essex.
    12. Bird, Charles William. Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regt.) Kilburn, London.
    13. Bird, C. W. Mercantile Marine Reserve. No address but buried Manor Park, London.

    I have listed No.6 as 'probable', has anyone the time/skills/sources to try and eliminate some of the others?

    Cheers,

    Mike
     
  9. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    Back to CHARLES BIRD I am afraid chaps.:(

    CWGC WW1 listings for: Bird, C.
    57 listings: starting with Charles and trying to narrow down by Regt/address.
    1. Bird, Charles. Bedfordshire Regt. No address. - Born and enlisted in Much Hadham, Hertfordshire
    2. Bird, Charles. Lt, Royal Field Artillery. Shoeburyness, Essex.
    3. Bird, Charles. Suffolk Regt. Mile End, London. - Born Stepney, Lived Putney
    4. Bird, C. Royal Horse Artillery. No address. - Born Kingston on Thames
    5. Bird, C. D. London Regt, Prince of Wales Own Civil Service Rifles. Stoke Newington, London. - Born in Charlton, Lived in Stoke Newington
    6. Bird, Charles Edward. London Regt (Queen Victoria’s Rifles). Upper Edmonton, London. - Born and lived in Edmonton
    7. Bird, Charles Edwin. 2nd Lt The Essex Regt. NOK address India.
    8. Bird, Charles Henry. The Rifle Brigade. Bromley, Bow, London. - Lived and enlisted in Poplar, Middlesex
    9. Bird, Charles James. London Regt, Prince of Wales Own Civil Service Rifles. Hammersmith, London. - Enlisted at Tooting
    10. Bird, Charles Josiah. Duke Of Cornwall’s Light Infantry. Camberwell, London. - Born and lived in Camberwell
    11. Bird, Charles William. Royal Engineers. Waltham Abbey, Essex.
    12. Bird, Charles William. Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regt.) Kilburn, London. - Born Marylebone, Lived Cricklewood, Enlisted Kilburn
    13. Bird, C. W. Mercantile Marine Reserve. No address but buried Manor Park, London.

    I have listed No.6 as 'probable', has anyone the time/skills/sources to try and eliminate some of the others?

    Cheers,

    Mike

    Updated with some info I found from SDGW (in red)

    Also:

    Another born in London, not on your list:
    Charled Bird, A/Corporal 238078 4th bat Gordan Highlanders, Born London - KIA 25 Jul 1918
     
  10. Pete Keane

    Pete Keane Senior Member

    Beckington Parish Clerk e.mailed - if they exist I will check them!

    Pete
     
  11. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    tmm - Thanks for that, will add to file.

    Pete - Cheers, please keep me advised.

    Re HUMPHREY GARTH a bit of progress with Eton College (good idea Geoff):

    Humphrey Garth, G18176, L/Cpl, 7th Bn, Queens Own Royal West Kent Regt.
    Died on 27 September 1916 age 34. Son of Douglas and Mildred Garth of Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks. Born Chelsea, London.
    XVIII. F. 6. MILL ROAD CEMETERY, THIEPVAL
    From Mike L (5/3/10)

    Humphrey Garth,3 Willougbhy Park Road,Tottenham. Chartered Accountant.
    Enlisted R Fusiliers at Oxford, 17th March 1916, age 34 4/12. Previous 2 years Eton College Volunteers.
    From Geoff501 (3/3/10)

    From Old Etonians Assoc:
    Garth, H.
    DOB 1880. Father, D. Garth of Old Headington, Oxford.
    Left Eton College 1898 and went on to do BA at Oxford (no University listed).
    Became a Chartered Accountant.
    Address at time of death: 7 Guilford Place, Russell Square, London.

    Some matches here, Oxford connection etc. but DOB doesn’t match (did he ‘loose’ 2 years on enlistment?). Parent’s address (Beaconsfield, Bucks) doesn’t match with Old Etonians records but at least Father’s initial is a match. Could Father have ‘emphasised’ Oxford link to get his son into Eton?
    Only 6months 10 days between enlistment and death.
    Address at enlistment (Tottenham) different to Eton’s record of address at time of death (Russell Square)

    Waiting to hear from Eton College Archivist (email sent) who may have some further information.

    Needs to be checked against this:

    GARTH H, 11880, Private, 5th Bn. King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.
    Died 01/04/1918. Bapaume Reservoir German Cem. Mem. BANCOURT BRITISH CEMETERY
    From Mike L (5/3/10)



    Not quite sure what this is revealing but we need to follow all leads.

    Thanks all, keep up the good work!

    Mike
     
  12. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Some matches here, Oxford connection etc. but DOB doesn’t match (did he ‘loose’ 2 years on enlistment?). Parent’s address (Beaconsfield, Bucks) doesn’t match with Old Etonians records but at least Father’s initial is a match. Could Father have ‘emphasised’ Oxford link to get his son into Eton?


    I have his full service record now. I think father died and mother then moved temporarily to a central London address, the Beaconsfiled house was left empty. (but I could be getting just confused). I'll check this evening, and also check the dates on the two year error. Will also email the service record.

    geoff
     
  13. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    SDGW - Humphrey Garth
    Born Chelsea
    Lived Oxford
    Enlisted Tottenham
    L/Corporal
    Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)
    7th Battalion.
    G/18176
    Formerly Ps/10593, R. Fus
    KIA = 27 Sep 1916

    ----so does not match with the KOYLI chap



    1891 Census - Living in Chelsea with family, parents Douglas and Mildred who were from Bloomsbury and Stanmore. Father was a solicitor

    1901 Census - Living with mother and siblings in Cowley St John, near Oxford - cant properly read his occupation but its "<something> clerk (chartered accountant)"

    Age discrepancies on the census too - in 1891 he is 11, and in 1901 he is 19


    EDIT: found his baptism record - baptised 14 Nov 1881, born 8 Oct 1881 at St Stephen, Kensington

    EDIT2: I cannot find any other listing for a Humphrey Garth that wasnt born in 1881 in Chelsea - be it BMD, London Parish Records, Service/Pension records - I'm pretty sure this is our man.
     
  14. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Geoff, tmm, outstanding work!
    Haven't had time to look through/digest this yet (especially the service record) but many thanks for your help.
    I am 99% this is the right guy, the 1 other possible (albeit KOYLI) is the 1% doubt. Seems very unlikely the guy on the plaque would be in a Yorks Regt (when did conscription start?).
    Cheers guys, I will lay down in a darkened rom and ponder......in a few hours!

    Mike
     
  15. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    tmm, just had a thought (surprising!)
    Could the word you can't make out on 1901 cencus be 'Articled'?
    Is an Articled Clerk an accountant?
     
  16. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    Just checked SDGW again and found this:

    Private Herbert Garth
    11880 5th Battalion King's Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry)
    Died 1 Apr 1918
    Born and resided in Handsworth, Sheffield


    Mike, just checked the census again - yep you're right, "Articled Clerk (chartered accountant)" - just did a quick google, and it looks like it's an apprentiship with a firm, usually in the accounting and legal professions
     
  17. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Brilliant tmm! Just nailed another one!!!
    Just a lucky guess about articled clerk.

    Trouble is I have lost track of how many that is now - time to update the file again.

    Mike
     
  18. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    Mostly SDGW research - Some good hits, some need more work

    Bernard Rosbrook - Born in Southwark (Walworth) in 1891 - 1901 Census, living in Walthamstow

    Henry Davis - Searching SDGW with keyword Edmonton, found 1 hit (not entirely helpful now, as other will need to be eliminated)
    Henry Frank Davis
    Born Holloway
    Lived and enlisted - Edmonton
    40786 9th Essex
    Formerly 21154, Royal Fusiliers
    KIA 30 Apr 1917

    George Edwin Thomas Gurney
    Born Edmonton
    (rest as previously found)

    Frederick Hopkins
    Born West Ham
    Lived Stratford
    Enlisted Edmonton
    6393 2nd Essex
    22 Nov 1914

    William King - Found a few with links to Tottenham, Walthamstow and Enfield - Will take a lot of refining.

    Henry Pike
    Born and resided Hackney
    KIA 15 Sep 1916
    1844 Cpl 6th London Regiment

    Henry Frederick Pike
    Born Kensington
    Lived Fulham
    KIA 30 May 1917
    125023 Gunner RGA

    Henry Hugo Pike
    Born Hoxton
    Lived Stratford
    Enlisted Broadway, London Field (Shoreditch)
    DoW 30 Nov 1917
    R/11443 Kings RRC

    Henry William Pike
    Born Bethnal Green
    Lived Canning Town
    Enlisted Plaistow
    Died 9 Aug 1917
    199223 Pvt Labour Corps

    ^ Best matches I could get with North/East London

    William Read (again just searched with Edmonton keywork - further elimiation needed)
    William Walter James Read
    Born/Lived/Enlisted - Edmonton
    KIA 4 Feb 1917
    G/17634 Pvt 8th Buffs (East Kent)

    Edward Wellman
    SDGW adds no further info, From Dorset, was mounted MP

    However, found a James Edward Wellman
    Born Clapton
    Lived Mill Hill
    Enlisted Edmonton
    DoW 25 Apr 1918
    G/22166 1/7th Middlesex

    No other matches for anyone with a name containing Edward and Wellman

    Edward Windsor
    Born and Enlisted Shoreditch
    Lived Bedford
    KIA 20 Dec 1914
    10072 1st Bedfordshire

    Edward Windsor
    Born Edmonton
    Lived Stratford
    Enlisted Edmonton
    KIA 13 Sep 1915
    8668 1st Yorks & Lancs

    These are the only 2 hits for Edward Windsor
     
  19. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Mystery plaque summary 8/3/2010.

    Of the 13 WW1 and 4 WW2 names on the plaque we now have definite identifications for the following: (additional information removed for clarity)

    WW1
    1. Humphrey Garth, G18176, L/Cpl, 7th Bn, Queens Own Royal West Kent Regt.
    Died on 27 September 1916, age 34. Son of Douglas and Mildred Garth of Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks. Born Chelsea, London.
    XVIII. F. 6. MILL ROAD CEMETERY, THIEPVAL

    2. Bernard Rosbrook, 4797, Private, Honourable Artillery Company.
    Died on 11 August 1916, age 24. Son of George and Annie Rosbrook, of 47 Hitchings Avenue, Walthamstow, Essex.
    I. G. 8. BOIS-DE-NOULETTE BRITISH CEMETERY, AIX-NOULETTE

    3. Edward Wellman, P/5546, L/Cpl, Military Mounted Police, Military Police Corps.
    Died on 8 April 1918, age 28. Son of George and Harriet Wellman of Parkstone, Dorset.
    VII. E. 8. CONTAY BRITISH CEMETERY, CONTAY.

    WW2
    1. Harold Blower, 105014, Second Lieutenant, 8th Bn., Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
    Died on 21 May 1940, age 31. Son of Alfred and Kate Elizabeth Blower, of Birmingham.
    I. A. 26. BRUYELLE WAR CEMETERY.

    2. Douglas Frank Pegrum, 1800767, Sergeant, 103 Sqdn., Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
    Died on 16 May 1944. Son of James Arthur Pegrum and Jessie Pegrum, of Maymyo, Burma.
    Remembered with honour, Panel 236, RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.

    3. Stanley John Clarkson, 651183, Aircraftman 1st Class, 113 Sqdn. Royal Air Force
    Died on 19 December 1941, age 22. Son of John H. Clarkson and Margeret E. Clarkson, of Leyton, Essex.
    1.H.23. HELIOPOLIS WAR CEMETARY.
     
  20. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    tmm that's great mate, haven't read in detail yet (or picked up PM).
    I am finding it brain-draining to try to retain an 'overview' on this whilst also looking for 'telling' details that might narrow things down.
    But I am certain this is a worthwhile effort on all our parts!
    I have a few other things going on that I have to dive off to occasionally and my mind is spinning. Work occasionaly intrudes too!
    Romford Recorder has been in touch with the original finder of the plaque and he has explained (as best he can) the extensive online research currently taking place. He doesn't do computers, let alone internet and history forums but I will try and get a mention for WW2talk if I can contact the Reporter.
    Will try to clarify my thoughts in the small hours.

    Mike
     

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