Mystery plaque dumped in Hornchurch, Essex

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by Mike L, Mar 1, 2010.

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  1. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Yep - let's carry on shall we?
    Geoff - what's SDGW?

    Soldiers Died In The Great War. Published in about 80 volumes around 1920. Now available on CD for a rather large wad on notes. Here are two examples of the data it holds. It's not 100% accurate, has some errors and very few records after 1918
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    There are some 'before' pictures of Broomfield Park on the net and it's not from there.

    UKNIWM

    I'm begining to wonder about a demolished church. It could have come from a building demolished years ago. Plenty of London's Victorian churches and chapels were being pulled down from the 1970s onwards.
     
  3. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    I'm begining to wonder about a demolished church. It could have come from a building demolished years ago. Plenty of London's Victorian churches and chapels were being pulled down from the 1970s onwards.

    Edward Windsor was C of E on his service papers. Nothing noted for the other two I found. There is a website of lost churches somewhere.......
     
  4. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    I know St Mary's Edmonton was demolished in 1957, along with the congregational church.

    Would be odd for something like this to turn up after that long...
     
  5. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Rich, thanks for that.
    I am not yet sure if we can discount Broomfield Park, have to wait for some feedback from Edmonton Police and I will be contacting London Borough of Enfield tomorrow.
    Also will be contacting Met Police to see if they have a wider report of thefts of War Memorial plaques. Probably should have gone down that route before!
    Geoff, tmm, I have a feeling churches might be a good option (given the Somerset Church plaque). Demolished/abandoned Churches perhaps or thefts? Any ideas?
    Almost there with the revised 'file' - now version 3, will update soon if I can keep my eyes open long enough!

    Best regards all,

    Mike
     
  6. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Rich,
    Geoff, tmm, I have a feeling churches might be a good option (given the Somerset Church plaque). Demolished/abandoned Churches perhaps or thefts? Any ideas?

    Some contact details on this page.

    St Mary's Walthamstow, Walthamstow
     
  7. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Geoff,
    Left a message with Rector of St Mary's Walthamstow (no-one in office until Thursday!).
    Enfield Council closed until Monday for all but emergency matters.
    Also contacted Met Police non-emergency number and they have given it a CAD (computer aided despatch) reference linked to Hornchurch nick. PM me if you (or anybody else) wants it.
    Now will get back to updating 'the file'.

    Mike
     
  8. englandphil

    englandphil Very Senior Member

    Name: Harold Blower
    Given Initials: H
    Rank: Second Lieutenant
    Death Date: 21 May 1940
    Number: 105014
    Birth Place: Birmingham
    Residence: London N
    Regiment at Enlistment: Artists Rifles
    Branch at Enlistment: Infantry
    Theatre of War: France and Belgium Campaign, 1939/40
    Regiment at Death: Royal Warwickshire Regiment
    Branch at Death: Infantry
     
  9. Pete Keane

    Pete Keane Senior Member

    Heard back from my first Pegrum contact, our Pegrum rang no bells with her, but she has forwarded my query to another Pegrum who has been working on their family tree.

    It is only a small line, originating in Nazeing & Waltham Abbey, so fingers crossed.

    Broomfield Park, dear Lord...these thieving scum, no punishment is too awful for them.

    Regards

    Pete
     
  10. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    OK all, updated 'file' below. It's been a bit of a task to collate all posts/info and it's a bit of a beast now but hopefully worthwhile. It's certainly clarified my mind a bit (much needed:huh:)


    Hornchurch file Version 3.
    Mike L’s comments/edits/credits in VIOLET.
    ‘Needs further checking’ in RED.

    1914 - 1919
    Charles Bird
    46 hits on CWGC, WW1. 33 for Bird, Charles or C. Started to narrow down possibles but no definite ‘hits’ yet. (Mike L, 5/3/10)
    Name:BIRD, CHARLES EDWARD
    Initials:C E
    Nationality:United Kingdom
    Rank:Rifleman
    Regiment/Service:London Regiment (Queen Victoria's Rifles)
    Unit Text:1st/9th Bn.
    Age:20
    Date of Death:25/09/1916
    Service No:5682
    Additional information: Son of the late Walter Bird and of E. L. Bird (Stepmother), of 19, Aberdeen Road, Upper Edmonton, London.
    Casualty Type:Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference:Pier and Face 9 C.
    Memorial:THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
    From Geoff501, 3/3/10.
    Needs to be checked further due to possible others (see above). (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Walter Brickett
    No CWGC listing for this name.
    Walter Brickett, born 1894 in Wanstead
    in 1911 he's a Junior Law Clerk, living in Wanstead.
    From Grantowi (GWF) 2.3.10.

    There is a Walter Harold Brickett in the Royal Navy records F7087, born Waristead - must be transcript error for Wanstead. No trace of him in CWGC, perhaps a non-comm, or died after the cut-off date.
    Anyone got £3.50 to spare to check Walter Brickett's record? (Might be a non-com, and may have some info on previous life).
    From Geoff501 3/3/10
    No hits on google for Waristead – guess it must be Wanstead. (Mike L, 5/3/10)

    Re Walter Brickett; now got his naval records. Born Wanstead occupation clerk. He did not died in service & the only match I can come up for death in 1956 at Wood Green
    From Chrisharley9 4/3/10

    Cause of discharge RAY whatever that means; he actually died 1976 at Southend. The Wood Green entry was a red herring
    From Chrisharley9 5/3/10.

    Henry Davis
    179 hits on CWGC, WW1 for Davis, Henry or C. Not started to narrow down yet. (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Humphrey Garth
    2 hits on CWGC, WW1 for Garth Humphrey or H.
    Humphrey Garth, G18176, L/Cpl, 7th Bn, Queens Own Royal West Kent Regt.
    Died on 27 September 1916 age 34. Son of Douglas and Mildred Garth of Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks. Born Chelsea, London.
    XVIII. F. 6. MILL ROAD CEMETERY, THIEPVAL (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Humphrey Garth,3 Willougbhy Park Road,Tottenham. Chartered Accountant.
    Enlisted R Fusiliers at Oxford, 17th March 1916, age 34 4/12. Previous 2 years Eton College Volunteers.
    From Geoff501 3/3/10

    Did you need to attend the college to be in the volunteers? How about contacting Eton College ?
    From Geoff501 5/3/10

    Needs to be checked against this:

    GARTH H, 11880, Private, 5th Bn. King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.
    Died 01/04/1918. Bapaume Reservoir German Cem. Mem. BANCOURT BRITISH CEMETERY (Mike L 5/3/10)

    George Gurney
    11 hits on CWGC, WW1 for Gurney, George or G. (Mike L 5/3/10) This is one that needs to be ‘tied down’.
    Name:GURNEY, GEORGE E. T.
    Initials:G E T
    Nationality:United Kingdom
    Rank:Private
    Regiment/Service:Bedfordshire Regiment
    Unit Text:4th Bn.
    Age:19
    Date of Death:15/04/1917
    Service No:20975
    Additional information: Son of George and Margaret Ellen Gurney, of 98, Fore St., Edmonton, London.
    Casualty Type:Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference:Bay 5.
    Memorial:ARRAS MEMORIAL
    From Geoff501 and ‘Geoff's Search Engine’ 3/3/10.

    Frederick Hopkins
    33 hits on CWGC, WW1 for Hopkins, Frederick or F. (Mike L 5/3/10)
    Needs to be researched further to avoid possible errors
    Possible for Frederick Hopkins. Name confirmed to be Frederick on GRO:
    HOPKINS, F. 6393, Serjeant, 2nd Bn. Essex Regiment.
    Died 22/11/1914 age 36. Husband of Susan Jane Coomber (formerly Hopkins), of 67, Silver St, Edmonton, London.
    III. A. 64. BOULOGNE EASTERN CEMETERY
    From Geoff501 and ‘Geoff's Search Engine’ 3/3/10.

    Frederick Charles Leonard HOPKINS born 1866 in St Lukes London. In 1911 he's a Clerk in a Bookshop, living in Leyton.
    From Grantowi (GWF) 2/3/10.

    Can't be the same bloke. Age difference!
    From Geoff501 4/3/10.

    Something to add to 6393 Sjt Hopkins, I've looked through the MICs I could find, not much there as expected but I did find a post war address for his NOK 100 Somerset Road, Edmonton (it was a request for his star, made on 18.2.19. He disembarked 22.9.14, died exactly 2 month later)
    From Geoff501 4/3/10

    William King
    347 hits on CWGC, WW1 for King, William or W. Nightmare. (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Clarence Knight
    21 hits CWGC, WW1 for Knight, C. but only one Clarence listed. (Mike L 5/3/10)
    Clarence George Knight, 144643, Gunner, 342 Siege Bty, Royal Garrison Artillery.
    Died 25 February 1919 age 24. Son of Abraham Knight of 7 North Bank, Waltham Abbey, Essex

    Clarence George Knight
    7 North Bank Cott.
    Waltham Abbey
    Engineer Storekeeper
    Enlisted RGA xx December 1915, age 20
    From Geoff501 3/3/10.

    Theres a Clarence E KNIGHT born 1904 in Leyton (not the same chap as above, parents - Albert & Edith) in 1911 living in Leyton
    From Grantowi (GWF) 2/3/10.

    Needs to be checked with other possibles on CWGC listings above. (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Henry Pike
    21 hits CWGC, WW1 for Knight, Henry or H. Not started to narrow down. (Mike L 5/3/10)

    William Read
    111 hits CWGC, WW1 for Read, William or W. Not started to narrow down. (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Bernard Rosbrook, 4797, Private, Honourable Artillery Company.
    Died on 11 August 1916.
    Son of George and Annie Rosbrook, of 47 Hitchings Avenue, Walthamstow, Essex.
    (CWGC search) Sole hit for WW1. Confirmed by phil w (GWF) 2/3/10. (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Bernard ROSBROOK, born in 1892 in Walworth. In 1911 he's a clerk with HMCS (Stores Whitehall), living in Walthamstow.
    (Grantowi (GWF) 2.3.10.)


    Edward Wellman, P/5546, L/Cpl, Military Mounted Police, Military Police Corps.
    Died on 8 April 1918 age 28.
    Son of George and Harriet Wellman of Parkstone, Dorset.
    Sole hit for CWGC, WW1. (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Edward Windsor
    CWGC, WW1 lists 7 Windsor Edward or E. (Mike L 5/3/10)
    This is Edward Windsor. There is a service record on Ancestry, fair bit of water damage. Enlisted in Y&LR 1907 at Stratford, age 18, Labourer, residence Edmonton. Killed in Action 13.9.15.
    There is a letter in his file from The Soldiers and Sailor's Family Association, Edmonton District Branch. Wonder if this could be the source of the memorial?

    WINDSOR, E. 8668, Private, 1st Bn. York and Lancaster Regiment.
    Died 13/09/1915. K. 28. KEMMEL CHATEAU MILITARY CEMETERY
    From Geoff501 3/3/10

    Needs to be confirmed by eliminating possible other but looks like a good candidate (Mike L 6/3/10)

    Found an address for 8668 Pte. Edward Windsor, from service records, mother is Mrs Elizabeth Windsor, 23 Denny Road, Lower Edmonton. (at December 1915)
    From Geoff501 4/3/10.

    1939 – 1945
    Harold Blower, 105014, Second Lieutenant, 8th Bn., Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
    Died 21/05/1940 age 31. Son of Alfred and Kate Elizabeth Blower, of Birmingham.
    I. A. 26. BRUYELLE WAR CEMETERY.
    Sole hit on CWGC, WW2. Can’t believe I just found this! (Mike L 5/3/10)

    Stanley Dyer
    4 possibles from CWGC, WW2: (Mike L 5.3.10)
    DYER, STANLEY VICTOR, 6923263 Rifleman, 2nd Bn. Rifle Brigade.
    Died 09/11/1942 age 20. Son of Frederick and Alice Dyer, of Edmonton, Middlesex; husband of Madge Irene Dyer, of Edmonton.
    XI. G. 2. EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
    My favourite ‘possible’, but don’t let that detract from further research!
    Also found by Geoff501 4/3/10.

    DYER, STANLEY, P/JX 161871, Ordinary Seaman, H.M.S. Barham, Royal Navy.
    Died 25/11/1941 age 18. Son of George Henry and Mary Jane Dyer, of Ryde, Isle of Wight.
    Panel 50, Column 2. PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL


    DYER, STANLEY CECIL, 6410976, Private, 9th Bn. Royal Sussex Regiment.
    Died 16/08/1944 age 34. Son of Thomas Herbert and Elizabeth Jane Dyer.
    Face 14. RANGOON MEMORIAL


    DYER, STANLEY VICTOR, PLY/X 322, Marine, Royal Marines, H.M.S. Glorious.
    Died 08/06/1940 age 35. Panel 43, Column 2. PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL


    DOUGLAS FRANK PEGRUM 1800767, Sergeant, 103 Sqdn., Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Died on 16 May 1944.
    Son of James Arthur Pegrum and Jessie Pegrum, of Maymyo, Burma.
    Remembered with honour, RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    Sole hit on CWGC, WW2 (Mike L 5/3/10)
    15-16 May 1944.103 Squadron Lancaster I LL963 PM-D. Op. Gardening.
    P/O. K W. Mitchell + Sgt. D. Howells + F/S. W. Kelly + F/S. R A. Tapp + F/S. C F. Bish + Sgt. D F. Pegrum + P/O. T K. Wright.
    Took off 2213 hrs Elsham Wolds tasked for operations over Kiel Bay. Crashed in Avernako Hoved on the NW edge of the tiny Danish island of Avernako, 7 km south of Faborg. Four bodies were washed ashore and buried in various Danish cemeteries, but the last three named are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.
    Bomber Command Losses Vol.5 – Chorley.(FromPeter Clare 2/3/10.)

    Stanley John Clarkson 651183, Aircraftman 1st Class, 113 Sqdn. Royal Air Force
    Died on 19 December 1941 age 22.
    Son of John H. Clarkson and Margeret E. Clarkson, of Leyton, Essex.
    1.H.23 Helioplois War Cemetery
    Sole hit on CWGC, WW2. Confirmation from Rich Payne 1/3/10. (Mike L 5/3/10)


    "THESE DIED IN WAR THAT WE AT PEACE MIGHT LIVE
    THESE GAVE THEIR BEST. SO WE OUR BEST MUST GIVE"
    Same wording on a small memorial in Bucks:
    War Memorials Trust - Penn Street
    (Also quoted in a religious sermon stored online, so presumably taken from some text or other.)
    From Von Poop 3/3/10

    Just checked SDGW. There are two Henry/Harry Davis in Walthamstow (born or resident), 1 William King in Walthamston (resident) and two William Reads, one in Edmonton and one in Walthamstow. 52 Reads in total, a few from London districts, but those two are the closest. Nothing close on the other names.
    From Geoff501 5/3/10






    If anyone spots an error please let me know.
    Going through these details so often has made me feel quite 'attached' to these guys, or is it just getting a bit dusty in here?:poppy:

    Mike
     
  11. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Englandphil - very interesting for BLOWER, thanks. Where did you find that? it's slightly different to the CWGC listing I found.
    Pete, thanks for searching the PEGRUM line. Re Bloomfield Park, couldn't agree more. see PM.

    Mike
     
  12. englandphil

    englandphil Very Senior Member

    Englandphil - very interesting for BLOWER, thanks. Where did you find that? it's slightly different to the CWGC listing I found.
    Pete, thanks for searching the PEGRUM line. Re Bloomfield Park, couldn't agree more. see PM.

    Mike

    Mike, its the details held in the Army ROH.
     
  13. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    It also could be a possibility that Walter Brickett could have had his name misspelt on the plaque, or Walter could be a nickname?

    For example, Ralph Brickett, Husband of E. Taylor (formerly Brickett), of 8, Haxelbury Green, Silver St., Edmonton, London.
    CWGC :: Casualty Details

    Clutching at straws I know, but a possibility
     
  14. englandphil

    englandphil Very Senior Member

    Name: Harold Blower
    Given Initials: H
    Rank: Second Lieutenant
    Death Date: 21 May 1940
    Number: 105014
    Birth Place: Birmingham
    Residence: London N
    Regiment at Enlistment: Artists Rifles
    Branch at Enlistment: Infantry
    Theatre of War: France and Belgium Campaign, 1939/40
    Regiment at Death: Royal Warwickshire Regiment
    Branch at Death: Infantry

    Born 1909, family lived lived at 153 Grange Road King's Heath, Kings Norton, Worcester. Younger brother of Alfred and Catherine Frances.

    The undermentioned from Artists ,Rif.,
    T.A. (Cadets, i63rd Officer Cadet Training
    Unit) are granted Emeigency Commns. as
    2nd Lts. 22nd Oct. 1939: —

    R. War. R.—Pte. Harold BLOWER (105014)
     
  15. englandphil

    englandphil Very Senior Member

  16. Pete Keane

    Pete Keane Senior Member

    Clarence Knight

    I have e.mailed the Waltham Abbey Historical Society to see if they know whether the address 7 North Bank Cottage was a tied cottage, it doesnt exist anymore, and the river doesnt seem to have a north bank, but it does go through the middle of the ordnance site.

    Pete
     
  17. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Pete,
    Thanks for that. I have emailed Rev. Chalkley in Beckington with your kind offer to check the Taunton CRO and will advise if he gets back to me.

    If I get a chance this afternoon I will have a go at narrowing down some of the more common GWGC hits.

    Mike
     
  18. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Phil, tmm,
    I will update BLOWER's details with the further info found. Will also try to find any possible other BRICKETTs.

    Cheers,

    Mike
     
  19. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Hi all,
    Thought I would try the easiest first - can anyone shed any further light on these 4 possibles?

    Stanley Dyer
    4 possibles from CWGC, WW2: (Mike L 5.3.10)
    DYER, STANLEY VICTOR, 6923263 Rifleman, 2nd Bn. Rifle Brigade.
    Died 09/11/1942 age 20. Son of Frederick and Alice Dyer, of Edmonton, Middlesex; husband of Madge Irene Dyer, of Edmonton.
    XI. G. 2. EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
    My favourite ‘possible’, but don’t let that detract from further research!
    Also found by Geoff501 4/3/10.

    DYER, STANLEY, P/JX 161871, Ordinary Seaman, H.M.S. Barham, Royal Navy.
    Died 25/11/1941 age 18. Son of George Henry and Mary Jane Dyer, of Ryde, Isle of Wight.
    Panel 50, Column 2. PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL


    DYER, STANLEY CECIL, 6410976, Private, 9th Bn. Royal Sussex Regiment.
    Died 16/08/1944 age 34. Son of Thomas Herbert and Elizabeth Jane Dyer.
    Face 14. RANGOON MEMORIAL


    DYER, STANLEY VICTOR, PLY/X 322, Marine, Royal Marines, H.M.S. Glorious.
    Died 08/06/1940 age 35. Panel 43, Column 2. PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL


    Note the HMS Barham casualty - the often shown footage of Barham rolling over and exploding after being torpedoed has always struck me as a chilling reminder of the sheer destructive force of the munitions carried on these ships.:mellow:

    Mike:mellow:
     
  20. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Below the CWGC listings for Edward Windsor:

    WINDSOR, E. 8668 Private, York and Lancaster Regiment.
    Died 13/09/1915. No address.
    K. 28. KEMMEL CHATEAU MILITARY CEMETERY.

    WINDSOR, E. 3848 Private, Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment).
    Died 12/11/1915. No address.
    III. A. 10. LONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY

    WINDSOR, E. 16201 Private, Dorsetshire Regiment.
    Died 19/11/1916. No address.
    B. 11. REDAN RIDGE CEMETERY No.3, BEAUMONT-HAMEL

    WINDSOR, E. 204509 Private, King's Shropshire Light Infantry.
    Died 28/08/1917 Age 32. Son of Thomas and Mary Windsor, of Bolton; husband of Emilia Windsor, of Thursfield Villa, Newchapel, Stoke-on-Trent.
    I. V. 16. PHILOSOPHE BRITISH CEMETERY, MAZINGARBE

    WINDSOR, EDWARD JOHN. 10072 Private Bedfordshire Regiment.
    Died 20/12/1914 Age 20. Son of Edward and Florence Windsor of 161, Ossington Buildings, Marylebone, London.
    Panel 31 and 33. YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

    WINDSOR, E. J. 102 076 Private, Machine Gun Corps (Infantry).
    Died 24/06/1918. No address.
    D. 6. SARRALBE MILITARY CEMETERY.

    WINDSOR, E. W. 60529 Private Lancashire Fusiliers.
    Died 02/09/1918. No address.
    I. A. 14. LE GRAND BEAUMART BRITISH CEMETERY, STEENWERCK.


    So not much help there. I amazes me only 2 of listed have age or address known in the file.:(

    Mike
     

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