Mystery plaque dumped in Hornchurch, Essex

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by Mike L, Mar 1, 2010.

  1. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Regarding the inscription on the plaque:


    The word 'scouting' popped up earlier ("I promise to do my best..." etc.) so could it be from a Scout HQ? If it's not that, it certainly sounds like a worthy sentiment in a school. It sounds a bit cheesy for a workplace, particularly as a factory or office could have had plenty of veterans in it at the time the plaque was dedicated.


    Sounds good to me.

    Clarence George Knight's service record is on Ancestry. It's running slow and I have to go out. If anyone wants to try, search on reg number 144643 only, first hit

    EDIT: Engineer Storekeeper.

    Humphrey Garth is also there, Chartered Accountant.

    Have to go, I'll be late.........
     
  2. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Geoff, if you can send me the info on Knight and Garth I will add it to the file. Thanks mate.
    I too thought about a school plaque and like the Scout hall/HQ theory. Another idea was a sports club of some sort. As Idler said, sounds a bit cheesy for a workplace, sounds more like an inspiration for children?
    I too have to rush out, won't be back for a few hours.

    Thanks everyone.

    Mike
     
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    I don't think that Scouting really fits. It only started in 1908 and Wellman for instance would have been 18 that year. Too old to be a member and too young for a leader ? Scout's was middle class in its early days as well but we have a prevalence of other ranks here.

    Age and social class would also seem to rule out Freemasonry and RAOB to a lesser extent.

    Membership of a Friendly Society such as the Oddfellows maybe but there's nothing 'fraternal' in the dedication.

    It can't be a church organisation or there'd be something about the glory of God.

    There are a few names that look to be of european / German origin but probably no more than to be expected from the East End.

    One thing that puzzles me is a that it is a single cast plate for both wars. This means that unless it was re-cast or replaced an earlier memorial, it only came into being post-1945. It's not as easy as carving extra names on stone or wood.

    ....None of which gets us any closer.
     
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    "THESE DIED IN WAR THAT WE AT PEACE MIGHT LIVE
    THESE GAVE THEIR BEST. SO WE OUR BEST MUST GIVE"

    Same wording on a small memorial in Bucks:
    War Memorials Trust - Penn Street
    (Also quoted in a religious sermon stored online, so presumably taken from some text or other.)
     
  5. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Geoff, if you can send me the info on Knight and Garth I will add it to the file. Thanks mate.


    I'm back before you!
    Only found these two, Ancestry still impossibly slow from here, so I only got the first page of each record. Will try again later. Details are:

    Humphrey Garth
    3 Willougbhy Park Road
    Tottenham
    Chartered Accountant
    Enlisted R Fusiliers at Oxford, 17th March 1916, age 34 4/12
    Previous 2 years Eton College Volunteers

    Clarence George Knight
    7 North Bank Cott.
    Waltham Abbey
    Engineer Storekeeper
    Enlisted RGA xx December 1915, age 20
     
  6. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Possible for Frederick Hopkins. Name confirmed to be Frederick on GRO:

    Name: HOPKINS
    Initials: F
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Serjeant
    Regiment: Essex Regiment
    Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
    Age: 36
    Date of Death: 22/11/1914
    Service No: 6393
    Additional Information: Husband of Susan Jane Coomber (formerly Hopkins), of 67, Silver St., Edmonton, London.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: III. A. 64.
    Cemetery: BOULOGNE EASTERN CEMETERY
     
  7. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    This is Edward Windsor. There is a service record on Ancestry, fair bit of water damage. Enlisted in Y&LR 1907 at Stratford, age 18, Labourer, residence Edmonton. Killed in Action 13.9.15.

    There is a letter In his file from The Soldiers and Sailor's Family Association, Edmonton District Branch. Wonder if this could be the source of the memorial?

    Name: WINDSOR
    Initials: E
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Private
    Regiment: York and Lancaster Regiment
    Unit Text: 1st Bn.
    Date of Death: 13/09/1915
    Service No: 8668
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: K. 28.
    Cemetery: KEMMEL CHATEAU MILITARY CEMETERY
     
  8. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    There is a Walter Harold Brickett in the Royal Navy records F7087, born Waristead - must be transcript error for Wanstead. No trace of him in CWGC, perhaps a non-comm, or died after the cut-off date.

    The search engine is not proving to be much use on this lot!

    Geoff

    in hand; will reply tomorrow or Fri

    Chris
     
  9. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Hi all, this is brilliant research and results. Thanks for your efforts.
    Bear with me - I have had a few pints tonight and will have to look at tonights posts in order - but the Edmonton link seems to be coming to the fore.
    I will be considering and posting for a couple of hours yet I guess!

    Mike
     
  10. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    First off, Rich Payne - I initially thought it was 1 casting but now have realised the 39-45 heading and names have been added later. This obviously dates the original to inter-war years. I am having image uploading problems at the moment (working off laptop) but if anyone is willing to pm me their email address I will send pics to post images of the plaque here (well overdue).
    Von P (Brian?) what a great find and link. I should have found the War Memorial Trust much sooner. Will contact them later.
    I will try to update the latest file and post but my eyelids are drooping at the mo so it might be tomorrow.

    Mike
     
    von Poop likes this.
  11. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Latest file.

    1914 - 1919
    Charles Bird

    Walter Brickett
    No CWGC listing for this name.
    Walter Brickett, born 1894 in Wanstead
    in 1911 he's a Junior Law Clerk, living in Wanstead.
    There is a Walter Harold Brickett in the Royal Navy records F7087, born Waristead - must be transcript error for Wanstead. No trace of him in CWGC, perhaps a non-comm, or died after the cut-off date.
    Anyone got 3.50 to spare to check Walter Brickett's record? (Might be a non-com, and may have some info on previous life).


    Henry Davis

    Humphrey Garth, G18176, L/Cpl, 7th Bn, Queens Own Royal West Kent Regt.
    Died on 27 September 1916.
    Son of Douglas and Mildred Garth of Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks. Born Chelsea, London.
    Humphrey Garth
    3 Willougbhy Park Road
    Tottenham
    Chartered Accountant
    Enlisted R Fusiliers at Oxford, 17th March 1916, age 34 4/12
    Previous 2 years Eton College Volunteers

    George Gurney
    Name:GURNEY, GEORGE E. T.
    Initials:G E T
    Nationality:United Kingdom
    Rank:Private
    Regiment/Service:Bedfordshire Regiment
    Unit Text:4th Bn.
    Age:19
    Date of Death:15/04/1917
    Service No:20975
    Additional information: Son of George and Margaret Ellen Gurney, of 98, Fore St., Edmonton, London.
    Casualty Type:Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference:Bay 5.
    Memorial:ARRAS MEMORIAL



    Frederick Hopkins
    Possible for Frederick Hopkins. Name confirmed to be Frederick on GRO:
    Name: HOPKINS
    Initials: F
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Serjeant
    Regiment: Essex Regiment
    Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
    Age: 36
    Date of Death: 22/11/1914
    Service No: 6393
    Additional Information: Husband of Susan Jane Coomber (formerly Hopkins), of 67, Silver St., Edmonton, London.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: III. A. 64.
    Cemetery: BOULOGNE EASTERN CEMETERY
    Frederick Charles Leonard HOPKINS born 1866 in St Lukes London
    in 1911 he's a Clerk in a Bookshop, living in Leyton


    William King

    Clarence George Knight, 144643, Gunner, 342 Siege Bty, Royal Garrison Artillery.
    Died 25 February 1919 age 24.
    Son of Abraham Knight of 7 North Bank, Waltham Abbey, Essex
    Clarence George Knight
    7 North Bank Cott.
    Waltham Abbey
    Engineer Storekeeper
    Enlisted RGA xx December 1915, age 20

    Henry Pike

    William Read

    Bernard Rosbrook, 4797, Private, Honourable Artillery Company.
    Died on 11 August 1916.
    Son of George and Annie Rosbrook, of 47 Hitchings Avenue, Walthamstow, Essex.
    (CWGC search)
    Bernard ROSBROOK, born in 1892 in Walworth.
    In 1911 he's a clerk with HMCS (Stores Whitehall), living in Walthamstow


    Edward Wellman, P/5546, L/Cpl, Military Mounted Police, Military Police Corps.
    Died on 8 April 1918 age 28.
    Son of George and Harriet Wellman of Parkstone, Dorset.

    Edward Windsor
    This is Edward Windsor. There is a service record on Ancestry, fair bit of water damage. Enlisted in Y&LR 1907 at Stratford, age 18, Labourer, residence Edmonton. Killed in Action 13.9.15.
    There is a letter In his file from The Soldiers and Sailor's Family Association, Edmonton District Branch. Wonder if this could be the source of the memorial?
    Name: WINDSOR
    Initials: E
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Private
    Regiment: York and Lancaster Regiment
    Unit Text: 1st Bn.
    Date of Death: 13/09/1915
    Service No: 8668
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: K. 28.
    Cemetery: KEMMEL CHATEAU MILITARY CEMETERY

    1939 – 1945
    Harold Blower

    Stanley Dyer

    DOUGLAS FRANK PEGRUM 1800767, Sergeant, 103 Sqdn., Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Died on 16 May 1944.
    Son of James Arthur Pegrum and Jessie Pegrum, of Maymyo, Burma.
    Remembered with honour, RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    15-16 May 1944.103 Squadron Lancaster I LL963 PM-D. Op. Gardening.
    P/O. K W. Mitchell + Sgt. D. Howells + F/S. W. Kelly + F/S. R A. Tapp + F/S. C F. Bish + Sgt. D F. Pegrum + P/O. T K. Wright.
    Took off 2213 hrs Elsham Wolds tasked for operations over Kiel Bay. Crashed in Avernako Hoved on the NW edge of the tiny Danish island of Avernako, 7 km south of Faborg. Four bodies were washed ashore and buried in various Danish cemeteries, but the last three named are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.
    Bomber Command Losses Vol.5 – Chorley.

    Stanley John Clarkson 651183, Aircraftman 1st Class, 113 Sqdn. Royal Air Force
    Died on 19 December 1941 age 22.
    Son of John H. Clarkson and Margeret E. Clarkson, of Leyton, Essex.
    1.H.23 Helioplois War Cemetery

    From Von Poop:
    "THESE DIED IN WAR THAT WE AT PEACE MIGHT LIVE
    THESE GAVE THEIR BEST. SO WE OUR BEST MUST GIVE"
    Same wording on a small memorial in Bucks:
    War Memorials Trust - Penn Street
    (Also quoted in a religious sermon stored online, so presumably taken from some text or other.)


    Info in red requires some sources please and maybe further research. I will be adding CWGC sources, this is just an update.
    This might be shared with newspapers soon but I will hold off until we can all cover our arses.

    Now got to get to bed, appointment at House of Commons later. Will be raising concerns about TNA charges etc (amongst other things).:mad:

    Thanks all for your interest
     
  12. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    Re Walter Brickett; now got his naval records. Born Wanstead occupation clerk. He did not died in service & the only match I can come up for death in 1956 at Wood Green

    Chris
     
  13. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Photo from Mike.

    I've hosted it off site since its a bit fuzzy and rather big, so avoiding re-sizing.

    (Mike apologises for quality - new camera!)

    http://www.********.co.uk/WW2talk/plaque front.JPG
     
  14. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Re Walter Brickett; now got his naval records. Born Wanstead occupation clerk. He did not died in service & the only match I can come up for death in 1956 at Wood Green

    Chris

    Thanks. Thats strange. One of those mystery men. Any reason given for if discharged?
     
  15. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    And the back (I've resized a bit). If WW2 has been added, it has been expertly done. I wonder if this originates from a foundry works in the area?

    http://www.********.co.uk/WW2talk/plaque back.JPG
     
  16. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Geoff, many thanks mate.
    Again apologies for poor pics, will try to get a better one!
    I have emailed the IWM Memorials department with the description/text and hope to hear back from them soon. They seem a better bet than the War Memorials Trust (who are a charity concerned with preservation of memorials) as IWM at least has an inventory of known memorials.
    Walter Brickett does seem to be a strange case - wonder if he might end up being the 'key' to this mystery?

    Mike
     
  17. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

     
  18. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Blimey - a quick response from IWM!

    Hi Michael,

    Thanks for your email. I'll do a bit more investigation but as I briefly mentioned to you on the phone, I thought the quote sounded familiar. In fact, I found the same memorial cast at St George's Church in Beckington. They have a marble backing on theirs which could explain the 4 bolts on the back of your memorial. I've attached a photograph, the reference is ukniwm 24387). The quote is on some other memorials as well but I thought this one was interesting considering the similarities. It looks like the 'Pro Patria' was taken off your memorial to fit on the WW2 names. I'm not sure if it's the same one you mentioned to me on the phone.

    I've searched the Edmonton memorials and also by the inscription but can't find an exact match. We do rely on volunteer fieldworkers and the general public to send us information of memorials so it could just be that this one hasn't come across our path yet.

    It seems that you are approaching it from the way that I would recommend (CWGC research and contacting the War Memorials Trust).

    I'll let you know if I find anything.


    The file ref for the picture attached is actually ukniwm24387(1).
    It indeed shows a near identical plaque. Only the names and the 'Pro Patria' on the bottom are different. Could be that there are a few of these around - must be able to find out who/where cast it. May still be some records of who ordered them - another line of investigation.

    Geoff - nice spot on the dates for Hopkins by the way.
    That is why I feel we need to double check anything that doesn't get a 'direct hit' on CWGC etc.

    Mike
     
  19. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Geoff - nice spot on the dates for Hopkins by the way.
    That is why I feel we need to double check anything that doesn't get a 'direct hit' on CWGC etc.
    Mike

    There are actually a few Hopkins with no data, so it could really be any one.

    Something to add to 6393 Sjt Hopkins, I've looked through the MICs I could find, not much there as expected but I did find a post war address for his NOK 100 Somerset Road, Edmonton (it was a request for his star, made on 18.2.19. He disembarked 22.9.14, died exactly 2 month later)

    geoff
     
  20. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    There is no real proof of the Edmonton connection yet, but found this for WW2.

    Name: DYER, STANLEY VICTOR
    Initials: S V
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Rifleman
    Regiment/Service: Rifle Brigade
    Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
    Age: 20
    Date of Death: 09/11/1942
    Service No: 6923263
    Additional information: Son of Frederick and Alice Dyer, of Edmonton, Middlesex; husband of Madge Irene Dyer, of Edmonton.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: XI. G. 2.
    Cemetery: EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
     

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