Mystery plaque dumped in Hornchurch, Essex

I've just had a reply to a message I posted on Ancestry on the Pegrum family, must have been over a year ago. I've now received a reply but don't have a current subscription so cannot reply.
The member's name is joypegrum, message as follows:

Subject: RE: Pegrum on War Memorial

Hi Geoff - can't tell if this message was posted this year or last - I didn't get an email notificatio and I'm ashamed to say I don't check here very often. I looked at the web address you quoted and see it was probably last year, so you may well have solved this puzzle by now.

I can't add much myself - I'm not aware of a Douglas in my hubbies tree - but most Pegrums do hark back to Essex - originally from around Nazing, Waltham abbey etc.

What a terrible thing to do with such a plaque and how wonderful that someone caring found it.

I am in touch with a lady in Oz who is the recorder of all things Pegrum - I'll see if she has anything on this family.

Regards, Joy

 

Funny isnt it, brick wall versus head for ages, then a veritable stream of info coming along!

I have sent Sydney (brother) via Ian (nephew) a fair amount of questions, mostly to give us a picture of Doug Pegrums life - at the moment the plaque isnt my main issue, more putting the Pegrums in touch with Ed Lansdell, which will be a fine thing in itself, but I have included it in the info request!

The Pegrums lived under Jap occupation for several years - this in itself would be an issue worthy of its own thread - there is very little info generally available.

So......a result with Douglas Pegrum....anyone care to suggest another name from the list which may be the next line of enquiry ?

Pete

 

Ps Mike - you keeping up to speed?

No slacking now.

 

Hi guys, not sure how I missed these recent developments!
I do check the forum most days but completely missed this until now.

Great news indeed with the search for Douglas's family. It is very nice to hear that they too appreciate your fine efforts. I can't wait to hear the story unfold.
Pete, I am glad you haven't lost sight of the original objective - how Douglas's name came to be recorded on the plaque. This family's history could well provide a key piece of information in that respect as until now the link to Tottenham seems rather vague. Could it be the oil cloth flooring link Pete suggested?

Pete, Geoff, thanks yet again for all your efforts, I think Adam's recent comments sum it up rather nicely.
I still haven't got to the LMA - a few work problems have taken priority recently - but do intend to go there when time permits.

Looking forward to more updates!

Now.....what is the next name for the Pete/Geoff treatment?

Mike

 

Now.....what is the next name for the Pete/Geoff treatment?

Mike


How about Humphrey Garth or Clarence (George) Knight. Since their WW1 records survive, it's a start.
I've had a quick look at Clarence Knight, who had five siblings who may have been born in Edmonton. One brother, and 4 sisters, but could not find anything later than their birth in BMD.

 

Didnt Mike have a possible address for a descendant of Garth?

If I recall correctly, a google search will throw up his old family house in Oxford, its of some note apparently, but little about the family.

Pete

 

Pete/Geoff,
Humphrey Garth is one that has been bugging me for a while. It's not too common a name and seems like a good one to try and tie down a bit better but the one we have been looking at (with the Oxford/Edmonton link) is not necessarily the right one, although it seems the best at the moment.

To recap, this is what I have cobbled together from previous posts:

Humphrey Garth
2 hits on CWGC, WW1 for Garth Humphrey or H.
Humphrey Garth, G18176, L/Cpl, 7th Bn, Queens Own Royal West Kent Regt.
Died on 27 September 1916 age 34. Son of Douglas and Mildred Garth of Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks. Born Chelsea, London.
XVIII. F. 6. MILL ROAD CEMETERY, THIEPVAL (Mike L 5/3/10)

Humphrey Garth,3 Willougbhy Park Road,Tottenham. Chartered Accountant.
Enlisted R Fusiliers at Oxford, 17th March 1916, age 34 4/12. Previous 2 years Eton College Volunteers.
From Geoff501 3/3/10

Did you need to attend the college to be in the volunteers? How about contacting Eton College ?
From Geoff501 5/3/10

Needs to be checked against this:

GARTH H, 11880, Private, 5th Bn. King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.
Died 01/04/1918. Bapaume Reservoir German Cem. Mem. BANCOURT BRITISH CEMETERY (Mike L 5/3/10)

Humphrey Garth, G18176, L/Cpl, 7th Bn, Queens Own Royal West Kent Regt.
Died on 27 September 1916.
Son of Douglas and Mildred Garth of Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks. Born Chelsea, London.
Humphrey Garth
3 Willougbhy Park Road
Tottenham
Chartered Accountant
Enlisted R Fusiliers at Oxford, 17th March 1916, age 34 4/12
Previous 2 years Eton College Volunteers

Did you need to attend the college to be in the voluteers? How about contacting Eton College ?
Geoff501 5/3/10.

From Old Etonians Assoc:
Garth, H.
DOB 1880. Father, D. Garth of Old Headington, Oxford.
Left Eton College 1898 and went on to do BA at Oxford (no University listed).
Became a Chartered Accountant.
Address at time of death: 7 Guilford Place, Russell Square, London.

Some matches here, Oxford connection etc. but DOB doesn’t match (did he ‘loose’ 2 years on enlistment?). Parent’s address (Beaconsfield, Bucks) doesn’t match with Old Etonians records but at least Father’s initial is a match. Could Father have ‘emphasised’ Oxford link to get his son into Eton?
Only 6months 10 days between enlistment and death.
Address at enlistment (Tottenham) different to Eton’s record of address at time of death (Russell Square)

Waiting to hear from Eton College Archivist (email sent) who may have some further information.
From Mike L 8/3/10.

SDGW - Humphrey Garth
Born Chelsea
Lived Oxford
Enlisted Tottenham
L/Corporal
Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)
7th Battalion.
G/18176
Formerly Ps/10593, R. Fus
KIA = 27 Sep 1916

----so does not match with the KOYLI chap



1891 Census - Living in Chelsea with family, parents Douglas and Mildred who were from Bloomsbury and Stanmore. Father was a solicitor

1901 Census - Living with mother and siblings in Cowley St John, near Oxford - cant properly read his occupation but its "<something> clerk (chartered accountant)"

Age discrepancies on the census too - in 1891 he is 11, and in 1901 he is 19


EDIT: found his baptism record - baptised 14 Nov 1881, born 8 Oct 1881 at St Stephen, Kensington

EDIT2: I cannot find any other listing for a Humphrey Garth that wasnt born in 1881 in Chelsea - be it BMD, London Parish Records, Service/Pension records - I'm pretty sure this is our man.
From tmm 8/3/10.

Just checked SDGW again and found this:

Private Herbert Garth
11880 5th Battalion King's Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry)
Died 1 Apr 1918
Born and resided in Handsworth, Sheffield


Mike, just checked the census again - yep you're right, "Articled Clerk (chartered accountant)" - just did a quick google, and it looks like it's an apprentiship with a firm, usually in the accounting and legal professions
From tmm 8/3/10.


Lots of doubtful things here such as different dates of birth etc which worries me.
I will go back over all the posts tomorrow and make sure I haven't missed anything in this summary for Humphrey.

Thanks guys, hope to hear from you.
Best regards,
Mike

 

Great news that we (the royal we, as I've done nothing of late) have found relatives of Douglas Pegrum. Well done.

I'll see if I can find any clues on Humphrey Garth's extended family over the next few days.

 

The place I was thinking of was The Priory, Headington (Oxford), then known as Linden House - rented by Douglas Garth for a year in 1899.

The Priory, Old Headington

Russell Square and Willoughby Park Rd - that is one massive jump in fortunes, from the centre of the fashionable world to what was, at the turn of the century, the very edge of London - Tottenham was really a couple of small villages until the end of the 19C.

Can we do a census check for that address - see if maybe he was a lodger, if memory serves me these are big 3/4 storey houses.

I do have a contact with solicitors records so can maybe found out more about his father, but not sure it will help.

Pete

 

Now this is interesting......

Seems that our Humphrey is of Royal blood.

The following is from a book on the Plantagenet bloodline!

The Plantagenet Roll of the Blood ... - Google Books

More to do on this but thought it worth mentioning.

Pete

 

Humphrey Garth, G18176, L/Cpl, 7th Bn, Queens Own Royal West Kent Regt.
Died on 27 September 1916.
Son of Douglas and Mildred Garth of Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks. Born Chelsea, London.
Humphrey Garth
3 Willougbhy Park Road
Tottenham
Chartered Accountant
Enlisted R Fusiliers at Oxford, 17th March 1916, age 34 4/12
Previous 2 years Eton College Volunteers

then

Parent’s address (Beaconsfield, Bucks) doesn’t match with Old Etonians records but at least Father’s initial is a match.

It is the same man - using the family role in the plantagenet bloodline, it shows Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks as being the family seat, both parents are correct although dad uses his middle name.

Pete

 

Well, my task of looking at his extended family is complete nice find

 

Pure fluke mate.

One article that popped up when I googled 'headington & garth' was about the closure of the local library, lady by the surname of Garth was protesting, might ring the library and leave a message for her!

pete

 

hello there
Photos attached from the Beaconsfield War Memorial.

Lance Corporal HUMPHREY GARTH

G/18176, 7th Bn., Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)
who died age 34
on 27 September 1916
Son of Douglas and Mildred Garth, of Morden, Beaconsfield, Bucks. Born at Chelsea, London.
Remembered with honour
MILL ROAD CEMETERY, THIEPVAL



regards
Clive

 

That's great Clive, all more for the file.Thanks very much.

I have spent a while today inserting the jpegs of Garth and Knight's Service records into their files, they are getting quite impressive now. It struck me though that we still have one other possible H. Garth to eliminate. I am 99% sure we have the right guy but can someone come up with a good reason to finally rule this other one out, apart from the possibly misleading Yorkshire Regt link?

GARTH H, 11880, Private, 5th Bn. King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.
Died 01/04/1918. Bapaume Reservoir German Cem. Mem. BANCOURT BRITISH CEMETERY

I have also started updating all the other files and trying to eliminate some of the other 'possibles' on the basis of either wrong geographic location or Regiment. I know this can be dangerous given the potential enlistment in 'any Regt requiring manpower' but I feel I have to somehow start narrowing down some of the more common names with lots of possibles.
I will let you know how it's going soon.

Just occurred to me - anyone going to Thiepval soon?

 

Mike

Messages 113 & 116 deal with this reasonably well, he was a Yorkshireman with a Yorkshire address, whereas Humphrey has a Tottenham address, which fits in with our theory.

Pete

 

Cheers for that Pete, I had missed it - Sheffield in fact. Just as well we had the right guy with all the info we have on him now!
I bugs me that we have a lot of possibles for some names and despite my previous post I am reluctant to eliminate too many on purely geographic grounds - Pegrum, Burma being a good example. If it wasn't for his relatively uncommon name we could have completely missed him since there was no obvious Edmonton/Tottemham link.

Mike

 

Also the KOYLI was Herbert, not Humphrey

 

Cheers Chris, getting difficult to see the wood for the trees!
When I get the files updated ok if I email a copy over to duplicate storage?
Geoff/Pete would you like a copy too?