Mystery plaque dumped in Hornchurch, Essex

Attached pdf of the summary I have compiled relating to the research generated by this thread.
I know there is a lot of possible information that I have left out, but I have done so because I didn't want to include what might prove to be erroneous leads. In many cases the suggested identities are not currently confirmed so I have made that clear.
I would like to think that perhaps we could get a little further with some of the names, and I am starting to do a bit more on the WW2 names. I guess the more common WW1 names will always be a real problem but perhaps we might make a couple of breakthroughs.

I would welcome any comments, I have time to amend this summary as it seems likely the plaque will not be going back to the Willougby Lane sports club until next week.

Best regards,

Mike

 

Following contact with the charity that now runs the former Tottenham Gas Works sports ground site it seems likely we will probably return the memorial plaque to its original home next Monday, 14th June, and also provide copies of the WW2Talk and GWF research relating to the names commemorated. See pdf in previous post.
The handover will be a rather low key affair but there might be some interest from local newspapers. I will take a few pics and offer to the press.
Hopefully there might be a higher profile unveiling of the plaque when it has been mounted in a secure position within the building in the near future, the chartiy is quite keen for this to be publicised.
That's all for now,

Mike

 

What a superb effort by all concerned and what a great conclusion. Well done Mike!
Tom.

 

Cheers My Old Dad, but I cannot really claim any plaudits.
I just did the easy CWGC searches in most cases. The real research was carried out by a few of our more informed members and I collated it.

 

Latest:
Dave King (the Gent that found the plaque back in February) and I took the plaque back to Tottenham on Monday morning. We met a couple of people associated with the Frederick Knight Sports Ground, as it is now known, and had a good old chat as we handed the plaque over. They were very happy to have the plaque and we discussed plans to re-fix it for public view.
But during the meeting a couple of doubts came into my mind.
The attached picture is of the front of the building where it was thought the plaque was originally fixed. There is a rectangular area just below the 'vase' casting above the main doors and behind the (recently fitted) roller security shutter. In the picture the shutter is not fully raised but when it was raised later it became apparent that the plaque is too deep to have fitted in that space. The width is about right but there is a carved inscription that looks like 'their name liveth for ever' or similar - it's difficult to see because of the roller itself - and that would further reduce the available depth for the plaque.
That, combined with further discussion, revealed that there is another sports ground very nearby that was apparently a former TA or recruiting base and I wonder if that could be another possible location? I tried searching for some info on that ground but no luck yet.
Luckily one of the chaps we met is based at that sports ground and he seems very interested in local history. I will keep in touch with him and see what he can find out.
A local newspaper sent a photographer along and he took a good few photos so hopefully we might get a bit more publicity for this enquiry and the forum as well. I will talk to the reporter in the next day or two, believe they go to print on Thursday.
Watch this space!

Mike

 

You might try asking the photographer to add an appeal if any locals have photos before the security roller was installed. It may be that the space for the plaque extends further below where the roller housing is, in order for there to be sufficient depth for the plaque to fit.
And congratulations to all who helped solve the mystery and find what hopefully is its rightful home...

 

Thanks Kevin, I was thinking along the same lines re the reporter. The charity has had the building for a good few years now, the groundsman we were talking to has been there about 16 years and the committee member about 20 years. The plaque was apparently missing when they started there! (if it is the same one).
A bit more research required methinks.

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

Only just caught up with the thread.

I will try and find the phone number of the British Gas press chap I was liaising with and pass it on to you - I believe the chap who took the plaques from Tottenham to Enfield still works for BG, I've not had much time for chasing up recently, maybe also they are sick of me phoning.....

The local TA unit was E Company,7th Bn Middx Regt based at 24 Park Lane, Tottenham, down the side of what is now White Hart Lane, I have loads of details on them from the earlier work - I had written it off as a dead end as there was no tangible connection.

Cheers

Pete

 

Hi all,
Lost broadband connection for a week - sorry for lack of news.
Tottenham, Wood Green and Edmonton Journal
Above link should show article in the Tottenham Journal about the return of the plaque to the sports club last Monday. There was also a similar article in the Romford Recorder.
I did try to get the forum some publicity regarding the research carried out here but the reporters chose not to include it for some reason.

Hopefully the articles might result in some more information about the plaque and it's history but I haven't heard anything yet.

Mike

 

Hopefully the articles might result in some more information about the plaque and it's history but I haven't heard anything yet.

Mike

Well done to all. Looks like the gas archive may be the best option, pity it's so far away.

Could do with some professional cleaning, has this been discussed?

 

I have been in contact with the Gas Archive in Warrington, the lady there looked through the club minutes but couldnt find any references to the memorials - tbh I'll only be entirely happy when I've done it myself, but Warrington is a loooong way.

Mike and I have talked a lot about this, my feeling is that the memorial was located at the Gas Club sportsground, but that it may have been somewhere else first....but where? There just doesnt seem to be a work connection, and bearing in mind that the memorial covers both World Wars if it was a seperate club I cant believe that nothing has turned up.

i believe its in the best place for it, but its still bugging me that the mystery isnt completely solved. I sort of feel a responsibility to the guys on it that if it is their only memorial then it should tell their story.

Pete

 

Peter
Is this a nagging doubt or just intution on your part, it looks to me that it may have been removed and stored then stolen or left so it could be found, as it was.
Mike, yourself and fellow forum members have put a lot of effort into the research of the men named on the memorial.
It possibly behoves us to continue and find the proper truth and the remaining information if at all possible.

 

Geoff, someone at the sports club is apparently a metalworker and is going to have a go at cleaning it. Hope he knows what he is doing! Thanks by the way for all your help over the last few months. I have a feeling this might carry on for a while yet while there is still interest.

Pete, I know how you feel mate. We seem so close to finally tying this down but we are not quite there yet. I hope something comes from the newspaper articles.

Oldman, I have a few things I want to look into a bit further with a couple of the names but (as you will know if you have read the whole thread) a few of the names have so many 'possible hits' on CWGC that I fear we might never get close to the identities. I am not sure if I feel a 'responsibility' to the guys named, but certainly respect and disappointment that their sacrifice is not better appreciated. I am also bloody minded enough to want to see them and the plaque properly honoured!

Mike

 

Mike,

Post 118 mentions H Davis

I have found an excellent post on another forum, which is the 1915 annual magazine of another gas company!

Found an H Davis in there, its the first chap in post 118.

Gas Light & Coke Company London 1915 Family History Local History

Pete

 

Mike,

Interesting comment by Remembrance on there.....

I have tried pm to Remembrance but it bounces, possibly he isnt a member as he only made one post.

Pete

 

have found this on Flickr, which is possibly the one pinched, sadly not ours!

Gas Light & Coke Co. War Memorial, E3 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

Oldman

Its the plaque itself that still leaves me a little puzzled.

There were originally 5 plaques at the gas club, two tall ones either side of the entrance, and one this size above the door.

The doubt is this - memorials are done alphabetically, so if there were 5 I would expect them to run concurrently, yet this memorial seems self-contained ie it runs alphabetically as if it did not relate to 4 other memorials.

Also, if it does relate directly to the Gas Club, you would think that there would be a 2nd memorial to the WW2 guys - rather than adding them to the bottom of a WW1 memorial, bearing in mind the clubhouse was a memorial hall, seems a bit odd the ww2 guys not being given their own memorial.

Dont get me wrong, I fully believe this is the memorial from above the door, and I believe the club is the connection, there are just too many coincidences....but....I cant help feeling there is something, somewhere that will prove it beyond doubt, and will also answer the mystery.

I'm thinking of something like a Gas Club football league, or snooker league, or suchlike, and that these were local guys who were club members but not employees.

Pete

 

Could someone have a look at the Pike on the linked list and see if there are any more details - looks like he was a sergeant in the Rangers, must have been a 1914 or 1915 KIA?

Also Read from the same list.

That gives us 3 names that are on the memorial and also the list, but whether they are the same people? I can do a bit on WW1 uniforms and badges, but names and addresses arent my thing i'm afreaid!

****Edit****

Have re-read the list owners post, the list of names is a list of men serving, which includes a ROH, I thought it was just a list of men KIA (did think it was unlucky them all being killed in the first year of the war....)

I have pm'd this thread to the list owner, see if he could help anymore.

I will also send another request to the Gas Archive and ask if they have any subsequent issues of the company publication, it is a different company magazine to the one from the Tottenham Gas Club.

Pete

 

Hi Pete,
That looks like a great possible source - how did you find it? Certainly offers the possibility of finding similar publications.

At the moment I am having trouble linking any of the 3 names (Davis, Pike, Read) on the Gas works list to any of the possibles from our previous research.

Henry Davis
179 hits on CWGC, WW1 for Davis, Henry or H. Not started to narrow down yet. (Mike L 5/3/10)

Just checked SDGW. There are two Henry/Harry Davis in Walthamstow (born or resident),
Geoff501 5/3/10.

Henry Davis - Searching SDGW with keyword Edmonton, found 1 hit (not entirely helpful now, as other will need to be eliminated)
Henry Frank Davis
Born Holloway
Lived and enlisted - Edmonton
40786 9th Essex
Formerly 21154, Royal Fusiliers
KIA 30 Apr 1917
From tmm 8/3/10.

Henry Pike
21 hits CWGC, WW1 for Knight, Henry or H. Not started to narrow down. (Mike L 5/3/10)

Henry Pike
Born and resided Hackney
KIA 15 Sep 1916
1844 Cpl 6th London Regiment

Henry Frederick Pike
Born Kensington
Lived Fulham
KIA 30 May 1917
125023 Gunner RGA

Henry Hugo Pike
Born Hoxton
Lived Stratford
Enlisted Broadway, London Field (Shoreditch)
DoW 30 Nov 1917
R/11443 Kings RRC

Henry William Pike
Born Bethnal Green
Lived Canning Town
Enlisted Plaistow
Died 9 Aug 1917
199223 Pvt Labour Corps

Best matches I could get with North/East London
From tmm 8/3/10.

And the rest of the 'possibles' from CWGC none are listed as 'Rangers'.

Re William Read none of the 'possibles or probables' we have so far are Lincs Regt.

Perhaps you have seen a bit more of the Gas works book, all I have seen so far is the alphabetical list with few attached notes.
Re the War Memorial Trust ('Remembrance' post) I was in touch with WMT a good while ago and they said then that they were not aware of the plaque but now with this info and the link to Gas works might be worth getting in touch with them again. I am v busy during days at the moment and getting in a bit late but I will try to follow up on some of this stuff over next few evenings and at the weekend.

Great stuff Pete, Cheers,

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

I havent any more info from the book, just looked at our list of names and compared it to the list on the link, picking out any names that may be on both.

Pike on the list is a Sgt in the rangers (1/12 London), I checked cwgc and he is not there, which is a disappointment for us, but probably a great relief to him!!!!

When Biker gets back to me I will ask him to scan the book on the relevant pages for us, see what it says. He does seem happy to help others.

Pete