Mystery Photograph: British Officers

Discussion in 'General' started by Charley Fortnum, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I have only a poor quality scan of this at the moment, the original is being forwarded to me by mail, but I'm impatient and wanted your opinions! The only facts I have are a) It's a photograph, not a post-card, b) that the photographer is W.H. Winter of Derby. I have a sneaking suspicion that I could identify one or more of the men featured, but I'll not speculate before I hear what you can deduce from it (you'll need to view it at full-sized). Does anybody recognise the building? (That's a lot of swagger sticks)

    Screen Shot 2018-11-02 at 02.41.03.jpg
     
    HA96 likes this.
  2. HA96

    HA96 Member

    Hi,
    I have seen this photo before and will show it to the sons of an officer from Scotland visiting my OFLAG/Ilag exhibition tomorrow.
    Stefan.
     
  3. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Please do.

    All information gratefully received--do you recall where you've seen it before?

    None of them look like spring chickens to me.
     
  4. HA96

    HA96 Member

    charley, I think it was a post ww2picture
    Stefan.
     
  5. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Any news?
     
  6. HA96

    HA96 Member

    Unfortunately not, but I will keep on searching, together with my friend in Scotland.
    Stefan.
     
  7. Blutto

    Blutto Plane Mad

    Wellbeck is not far from Derby, but if it is Wellbeck it wasn't taken in front of the main facade.
     
  8. Guy Hudson

    Guy Hudson Looker-upper

    C.F.
    Are the cap badges all the same?

    W.W. Winter of Derby established in 1852
    W W Winter Heritage

    I wondered if it was taken at the rear of Markeaton Hall in Derby. The Hall and park were commandeered by the Army for the duration of the war. It was demolished in 1964.
    The only rear view of the hall I can find is an etching from 1829.
    Screen Shot 2018-11-08 at 12.29.27.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018 at 2:16 PM
    Charley Fortnum, HA96 and CL1 like this.
  9. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Guy, I'm still waiting for the original to reach me in the mail. When it arrives I'll get the best quality image of it uploaded here for magnifying glass-work. Until then, I can't tell about the cap badges.

    No Sam Brownes being worn by any of those swagger-stick brandishing officers--does that offer a clue to the date?

    I'm going to search around for a more modern image of Markeaton Hall--thank you for the lead.
     
  10. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    There's a very good image here from 1958 and I'm leaning towards saying that it isn't the same place.

    https://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/NAT6-web.pdf
     
  11. Guy Hudson

    Guy Hudson Looker-upper

    C.F.
    It might be worth contacting W.W. Winter, they may have records of war-time commissions?
    They began cataloguing their negatives in 2014.
     
  12. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I'll wait to get a look at the picture in my hands, but if it all comes up blank I might just try that.
     
  13. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Right, I've done my best with this, but it involved ultra-powerful zooming that's at the limit of my phone camera. I'd say that the cap badges match, but I'm hopeful that somebody can come up with more than that (click to enlarge).

    20181110_213005.jpg 20181110_213021.jpg 20181110_213104.jpg 20181110_213119.jpg

    [From left to right of the small image in the first post]

    Surely the lighter figure in the second and third image has air force wings above his ribbon. Liaison? A course? (Edit: I've had the magnifying glass out and it's definitely wings, but his cap badge matches everybody else's)

    And my instinct is to say that they're fusiliers' insignia on the lapels. Any opinion?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 1:10 PM
    Guy Hudson likes this.
  14. Blutto

    Blutto Plane Mad

    Maybe of no significance, but many have no medal ribbons.
     
  15. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I count that twelve do and the rest don't.

    Possibilities are:
    • Earlier war, medals not issued--older chaps have Great War or Inter-war decorations.
    • Home unit
    • High proportion of replacement officers.
    Others?
     
  16. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Screen Shot 2018-11-10 at 22.19.30.png

    What do we think of that cap badge and the lapels?

    (Could they be commonwealth?)

    ROYAL ENGINEERS!?!?

    I'm pretty sold on this one, but please tell me if I'm wrong.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 1:28 PM
  17. Guy Hudson

    Guy Hudson Looker-upper

    CF
    I agree, Royal Engineers

    R.E. Officers Collar Badge
    Screen Shot 2018-11-10 at 14.31.25.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 2:33 PM
  18. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Excellent--progress. We have Royal Engineers in (possibly) Derby.

    The LMS School of Transport in Derby was taken over by the Royal Engineers during the Second World War, but the building doesn't seem to match. It became the Railway Training School 1939-45.

    Who's the Royal Engineers expert on the board?
     
  19. Guy Hudson

    Guy Hudson Looker-upper

    Charley Fortnum likes this.
  20. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

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