My great uncle: John 'Jack' Rogerson

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Emmajanewatts, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    I also really hope Emma sees this. My father Jack (Jo) Lee was the leader of the FOB 81 group that Jack Rogerson was in and the both had legs blown off as described above. Unfortunately Jack R died before he could get any help my father was taken in to the woods and treated by a German doctor. A medical orderly. Graham Rogers was taken prisoner and treated my father giving him morphine but he died in his arms. The story is told in the attached article I wrote. Clearly now I know what I have found in these amazing threads I will have to rewrite the tale. But your uncle and my father died in the same incident while blazing away trying to support the ambushed infantry of the 2nd Warwick’s. Emma contact me and we can talk more. The photographs above form Emmanuel are great and will soon be in my memoirs that I am writing.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
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  2. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    Steve
    You may have seen my recent threads and my father, Jo Lee’s story. I and Malcolm were born into the House Northfields in Ravensden. The attached images show Jack (Jo) Lee and Mum, Olive in front of Northfields. Also there is an image of the Ravensden memorial. Unfortunately Malcolm died a couple of months ago.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Don’t think I’ve read this topic before. Congrats to all members who have contributed.

    Although Emma Jane hasn’t been on the forum since Jan 2014 I’ve sent her a pm to alert her to Adrian’s post. Hopefully she will return.

    Steve Y
     
  4. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Good to hear from you and welcome to the forum, Adrian. Enjoyed reading your very moving article; and have just read your other posts too. My condolences on your brother, Malcolm's, passing.

    I never got to reinvigorate my search at Ravensden and probably just as well, given you are based in Australia :) . It is one of circa 3 things I had lined up to do for forum members that I just have not had the time to finish, following a change of role at work. I am now out of the UK a lot of the time.

    There is a great deal of knowledge on this forum and advise you tap into it to help complete your father's story. If you have any questions, just ask away...

    As for Emma, she made her enquiry and 'disappeared' during the building of this thread. It may be that the details of Jack Rogerson's demise were 'just too much' for her, such as it can be for some people. However, I also believe that she was unwell and it may be this that has kept her away. Hopefully, Steve Y's prompt will see her return!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
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  5. Shiny 9th

    Shiny 9th Member Patron

    What an extraordinary investigation this has been. I have just read it through and the patient sifting of the clues and following the leads made it compelling to follow. Such generous sharing of skills and knowledge really makes this website examplary.
     
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  6. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    This has been amazing. Given all the incredible information you have all found, I can now write a very detailed description of what happened to my father and Jack Rogerson his colleague in the vehicle in which they both died. I will post that summary here.
    I have not been back to Ravensden like Steve but I did go onto Google maps and digitally walked up the road from the church to where I believe Northfields, the house I first lived in was. I am sure I found the house as, much to me surprise, it still exists! A photo from Google is attached below, as well as a picture of the Church where the name of my father is on the memorial and a view of the village. Northfields was clearly the R&R center for army and air force guys and was the site of many a party. A fairly short time after Jack (Jo's) death my mother married a Squadron Leader, Richard Davison. Mainly as she wanted support for Malcolm and I. A physicist, he eventually worked for Pilkington's Glass and this is why we came to Geelong near Melbourne in 1957. They eventually did find love and he did care well for us but died in his 50's in tragic circumstances. I became a microbiologist and worked on the stomach bug Helicobacter pylori and taught medical students microbiology.
    Adrian Lee
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION
    Rogerson Household (6 People)
    258 Skipton Road, Harrogate M.B., Yorkshire (West Riding)
    FIRST LAST DOB OCCUPATION
    John W Rogerson 01 Aug 1903 Lorry Driver, Coal
    John Rogerson 26 Nov 1924 Messinger Boy [sic] , G.P.O.
    Charles H Rogerson 28 Feb 1927 Labourer, Coal Lorry
    Alan Rogerson 29 May 1931 At School

    (2 entries hidden)
     
  8. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    Dear All
    Especially Emma. After these wonderful threads I have put together what I think is the sad story of my father Jo Lee and your Great Uncle Jack Rogerson. I hope you get the chance to read it. It is a follow up to the story I attached a few threads ago. I have posted this revised summary on the Jack Lee thread.
    Captain Jack Lee 14 Medium Regt RA D-Day+1
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
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  9. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    What a great thread - that's what this forum is all about - congratulations to all involved.
     
  10. Arty

    Arty Sorting out the chaff from the wheat....

    Folks,

    Notwithstanding that the subject of this thread is specifically Telegraphist John "Jack" ROGERSON, it would be helpful to identify the other members of his team ie. FOB 81. Does anyone have the full name/service no. of Lance Bombardier Hyde? Thus far I’ve concluded that L/Bdr Hyde was a Royal Engineer – which is clearly not right.

    Here’s my defective detective work on Lance Bombardier Hyde - purloined from various sources:

    1. From the forum, a list of patients at Rennes Hospital in 1944:

    “243 PVT 14282252 Hyde BR Fracture right Tibia and Fibula 18-Jun-44”

    The rank “pvt” appears to be an error either way – that is, it should apparently either be Sapper, or, L/Bdr

    2. From the national archives website:

    The service number 14282252 apparently belonged to Harry Edward Hyde, Royal Engineers. In 1947 the then Serjeant Hyde was awarded the British Empire Medal (for his post war work in the far east).

    3. From an obituary of Harry Edward Hyde in the www.heraldscotland.com:

    We have the information that Harry Edward Hyde was demobbed in 1947, however he later became a commissioned officer in the RE.

    As for his wartime service there are three paragraphs that caught my attention. The fact that it refers to “the Lovat Scouts” (etc etc) strikes me as a typically confused journalist, although there’s a hint that Harry was not performing an RE role in June 44. It states…

    “He had enlisted as a sapper in the Royal Engineers when he was 17 and trained with Combined Operations forces before being attached to the Lovat Scouts for the Allied invasion of Europe. He was one of the first to be piped across Pegasus Bridge by Bill Millin, Lord Lovat's personal piper.

    Assigned as a forward observer with No1 Combined Operations Bombardment Unit, he directed salvos of 15-inch naval gunfire from the battleship and Jutland veteran HMS Warspite. She had left refit in Greenock days earlier with larger guns and was the first to open fire on D-Day, targeting the German battery at Villerville.

    The sole survivor of a landmine accident in which he was seriously wounded, he was taken prisoner and treated in a German field hospital. He was one of the first patients to undergo major surgery by epidural. He was then sent to a front-stalag near Rennes, before being liberated by the Americans in August 1944.”


    Slightly Confused

    Arty
     
  11. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    Michel has given the composition of FOB81 and 83 before at
    Captain Jack Lee 14 Medium Regt RA D-Day+1
    They were:
    No.81 FOB party:
    Captain RA (FOB) — Captain Jack "Jo" LEE, RA (177616) - KIA 7 Jun 44
    Artillery NCO (Observation Post, Assistant = OPA) — Lance Bombardier HYDE - WIA, PW 7 Jun 44
    Naval Telegraphist (WT Operator) — Ordinary Telegraphist John "Jack" ROGERSON (P/JX 282400), also driver of the half-track - KIA 7 Jun 44
    Naval Telegraphist (WT Operator) - PW 7 Jun 44
    Naval Signalman (for Visual Signalling) - PW 7 Jun 44

    No.83 FOB party:
    Captain RA (FOB) — Captain Geoffrey James Foster BURGESS, RA (66752)
    Plus some or all of the following:
    Sergeant L Sherry, from Wimbledon
    Bombardier T H Digings, from Dedham, Essex
    Naval Telegraphist G W Winch, from Birmingham
    Naval Telegraphist W J Crooks, from Leeds
    Naval Telegraphist J T "Good-o" Rose, from Bethnal Green

    No.83 FOB party was initially attached to HQ 185 Brigade, and all five members were to land with their half-track from LCT(4) LTIN 337 at H+240 on QUEEN WHITE Beach.
     
  12. Arty

    Arty Sorting out the chaff from the wheat....

    Hello again Adrian,

    Thanks, I saw this info from Michel S. I still want to confirm L/Bdr Hydes full name/service number though.

    I'm going to add, L/Bdr Hyde, was very much Capt Lee's "right hand man" ie. he worked directly with him, and was on board the same M14 on that day. With no disrespect, Capt Burgess was elsewhere at the time. L/Bdr Hyde's letters provide the best first person account of what occurred. Danny M, on this forum, has apparently provided extracts from L/Bdr Hyde's letters - I ponder whether there's more info.

    Regards
    Arty
     
  13. Arty,

    Congratulations on this beautiful piece of tracking! There seems to be little doubt left that you have found L bdr Hyde, since all the important parts as highlighted in your post do fit together or match what we already know.

    As for those parts which do not quite match, the erroneous rank of "PVT" in the Rennes Hospital Log is a peccadillo in my view. Incidentally, sirjahn in his post with the Log (Looking for Info on Front-Stalag 221 Rennes France) states that it had been "kept jointly by Maj. Oxley, RAMC and Capt Kolmann MC", so it is more than possible that Maj Oxley had at least supervised the initial nursing of L bdr Hyde and accompanied him and the other surviving wounded men all the way from Lebisey to Rennes Hospital.

    The article in the Herald Scotland (direct link here: Captain Harry Hyde) is more of a mystery, because the many new snippets it includes might have been gleaned from Harry's own reminiscences via his family, just as they could simply come from D Day legends (Pegasus Bridge & Bill Millin, HMS Warspite...).

    The fact that after demob he joined the Army Emergency Reserve as a Captain RE is an indication that his initial joining the Royal Engineers at age 17 might be correct. He probably reverted to his former Corps when he was posted to the Far East, since the Embarkation Staff Officer position he reportedly held in Ceylon after the Japanese surrender is typically a Royal Engineers' one.

    It would be interesting to contact Harry's family to see whether he left some notes telling about his WW2 experience, and maybe also his Service Record.

    Harry wrote the text of his own obituary, which appears here:
    Harry Hyde

    Michel
     
  14. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    Hyde01.jpg

    Wounded

    Hyde02.jpg
     
  15. Arty

    Arty Sorting out the chaff from the wheat....

    Nice work harkness!!! A particularly interesting story continues to evolve. Got around a bit did 'our' Harry....

    Regards
    Arty
     
  16. Arty

    Arty Sorting out the chaff from the wheat....

    Michel,

    Part 1….

    Yep, thanks, long since identified Major Oxley as an important player in the events.

    In case you haven’t seen this guff before…

    From an extract of the memoirs of Pte Jim Wisewell of 223 Fd Ambulance (Later Reverend Wisewell):

    “So some of our men were KIA and some wounded and four were taken prisoners on D+1. Major Malcolm Oxley, Privates Rogers and Scoot, with Driver Cottrell took a stretcher-carrying Jeep to Lebisey crossroads to try and bring out wounded from the 2 Warwicks who had caught a packet there. They ran straight into a German MG post and were captured. Driver Cottrell, being RASC and armed, was put into their POW cage but the other three RAMC men were taken into Caen, questioned by the Gestapo without any effect and sent to work in hospitals treating both German and British wounded. Graham Rogers ended up in Brest and was freed by the Americans in August.”

    Major Oxley was OC 223 Fd Ambulance on 06Jun44, his full name/regt No. was Major William Malcolm Oxley 63803. The other two RAMC personnel of 223 Fd Ambulance captured with Major Oxley were apparently Pvt Graham Percy Rogers and Pvt William Scoot. All three ended up at the German Military Hospital at Rennes on or about 18Jun44 ie. confirmed in the Rennes hospital list.

    Major Oxley became the chief Allied Medical Officer at the hospital whilst Rogers and Scoot became Nursing Orderlies. They were apparently liberated by US ground forces on or about 04Aug44.

    Of note Pte Graham Percy Rogers was the gentleman that Adrian found. Curiously Graham referred to his offsider on 07Jun44 as “Ken”.

    Lieutenant Norman Roy Grist 279736 of 3 Section, 223 Fd Ambulance (apparently attached to the KSLI) also recounted the capture of Major Oxley in a post-war interview – what follows is an extract from the transcription of the interview:

    “My Company Commander, he was in charge of the look out, was to meet his infantry at La Bessay woods, which still grows, and that was fine. But, unfortunately, owing to this bother with the tanks and the rest of it, there must have been something else as well, he got there on time, everything ready, except that the troops that welcomed him were not our troops but were the Germans. So that he became instantly a prisoner of war and that was it.”

    (source: Doctors at D-Day: Professor Grist's story )

    Part 2. Bingo! Thanks to harkness we now have FOB 81’s “Ack” identified: Acting Lance Bombardier Harry Edward Hyde 14282252

    Of the other two RN Telegraphists I wouldn’t have a flippin clue.

    Scarily, idiotic journalists are going to devolve historic fact into confused mythology!

    Regards
    Arty
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  17. An interesting (or rather, bothering) detail: in the documents posted by harness, L bdr HYDE's unit is in both instances stated as being 4 COBU, whereas I always thought that No.81 FOB was from 'A' Tp, 1 COBU.

    I wonder what this might come from.

    I understand that at least parts of 4 COBU acted as a kind of reserve and landed on D+3 in SWORD Area. See Capt Peter CULLEN's interview: Peter Cullen | OP Officer
    Another account by Captain Alex CAMERON who trained alongside Capt CULLEN:
    My Dad's Memoirs: Memoirs of a Fisherman's Son - Part 2, Chapter 13

    Michel
     
  18. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    I missed this thread but reading through from pg 1 it appears most of the posts were made prior to the cwgc releasing their concentration documents ? I had a quick look and it appears (not conclusive) but 2nd Warwicks who died at Libisey (?) were buried at two (that I can find) locations ;-
    Libisey GSGS 4250 1/50000 France 7F/1 these were reburied at Ranville ?
    &
    Labisey Wood M.R 058720 France 7F/1 these were reburied at LA DELIVRANDE ?

    I know this is far too simplistic but it could be `Jack` is either at Ranville` or LA DELIVRANDE and the `Captain` likewise ? (Just thinking aloud )


    Kyle
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  19. Kyle,

    The simplest anwer is often the correct one.

    There are several unidentified burials at both places:

    RANVILLE WAR CEMETERY
    Cemetery
    History Information
    The Allied offensive in north-western Europe began with the Normandy landings of 6 June 1944. Ranville was the first village to be liberated in France when the bridge over the Caen Canal was captured intact in the early hours of 6 June by troops of the 6th Airborne Division, who were landed nearby by parachute and glider. Many of the division's casualties are buried in Ranville War Cemetery and the adjoining churchyard The CEMETERY contains 2,236 Commonwealth burials of the Second World War, 90 of them unidentified. There are also 323 German graves and a few burials of other nationalities. The CHURCHYARD contains 47 Commonwealth burials, one of which is unidentified, and one German grave.

    LA DELIVRANDE WAR CEMETERY, DOUVRES
    Cemetery
    History Information
    The Allied offensive in north-western Europe began with the Normandy landings of 6 June 1944. The burials in La Delivrande War Cemetery mainly date from 6 June and the landings on Sword beach, particularly Oboe and Peter sectors. Others were brought in later from the battlefields between the coast and Caen. There are now 944 Commonwealth servicemen of the Second World War buried or commemorated in this cemetery. 65 of the burials are unidentified but there are special memorials to a number of casualties known to be buried among them. The cemetery also contains 180 German graves.

    I couldn't find how to access the burial records which would show where the unidentified burials came from.

    Michel
     
  20. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Michel heres one set from La Delivrande showing the transfer of bodies from Libisey Wood?
    doc2244052.JPG
    and one from Libisey to Ranville
    doc2264674.JPG

    Kyle
     

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