My Grandads war records - 9th Bn Manchester Regiment

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Chris Wizz, Mar 23, 2014.

  1. Chris Wizz

    Chris Wizz Member

    Hi all

    I late last year started researching my grandads military service.
    I was advised to apply for his war records, the service was very good and they arrived within 6 weeks, I have taken photographs of each of the forms I was sent and i'm posting them here to seek advice on what it is im looking at and maybe some insight as
    to the details.

    Thanks

    Chris

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  2. Chris Wizz

    Chris Wizz Member

    Continued....

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    Thats the paperwork I was sent, my next job is to work through the information. So any assistance will be appriciated.

    Thanks
     
  3. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Little bit small to read properly Chris.
    Think that's why noone has replied yet.
     
  4. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    HI Chris

    IT is great to get those records, but it would also help us if you could tell us what you don't understand. When I got my Father's records I did something similar, but put the translations underneath each one, with questions beside what I did not understand or could not read.
    Maybe do something similar. There is a lot there.

    regards

    Robert
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Am I correct in reading he was with the 9th Battalion, The Manchester Regiment until the end of the war?
     
  6. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

  7. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    He was :) . Transferred to Manchesters from 14/11/43
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    In that case here's the war diary refs. I suspect the 1944 and 45 diaries will be quite thick because they were in Italy and the diaries have been split into 6 month periods rather than 12 months.

    WO 166/12619 9 Manchester Regiment 1943 Jan.-Dec.
    WO 169/10259 9 Manchester Regiment 1943 Dec.
    WO 170/1438 9 Manchester Regiment 1944 Jan.- May
    WO 170/1439 9 Manchester Regiment 1944 June - Dec.
    WO 170/5046 9 Manchester Regiment 1945 Jan.- June
    WO 170/5047 9 Manchester Regiment 1945 July - Dec.
    WO 170/8023 9 Manchester Regiment 1946 Jan.
     
  9. Chris Wizz

    Chris Wizz Member

    Hi there, yes I will go through them and post the things I'm struggling with.
    Is everybody ok with opening the original files? My upload was limited to 2meg so a bit limiting. Thanks for the direct links red goblin. I'm working at the mo hope to be able to respond properly later tonight
     
  10. Chris Wizz

    Chris Wizz Member

    I have been going through my paperwork tonight. Mostly I can work it out as the copies are quite clear. But I do have some questions I'm hoping somebody can help with.

    Ref the second photo, I'm struggling to make out what is detailed from the 5th entry down

    Ref the last photo, this appears to cover most of the postings etc, it's quite east to read right up to 'disembark' can anybody help with the details here? I'm familiar with BNAF and CMF it's the details to the left of these abbreviations which are not clear.
    I'm hoping they point to my granddads role in then 9th Manchester's.

    Ref picture 4, just struggling with the abbreviations after the 'home' posting. I'm assuming its a reserve unit?

    The last point is on the last picture he was posted 13/11/43 to
    Newbiggin (I think) where is this? Was it a training area?

    Thank you all for you're time in helping out.

    Chris
     
  11. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

  12. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Hmm - to recap with rescaled crops of your queried bits, here are my inexpert best readings to start the ball rolling ...
    • "Ref the second photo, I'm struggling to make out what is detailed from the 5th entry down"
      IMG_7110_crop.jpg
      "9/78/44" | "To XII List 22.8.44
      "9X103/44" | "XIV. 2CRU. 4.10.44
      "9/93/44" | "To Unit 14.10.44
      "24N/GTC 229/45" | "To.24N/.G.TC. 13.11.45
      "24N/GTC 266/4" | "To Y List E. 29.11.48
      "\Relegated LY(Z) Res 20.12.45"
    • "Ref the last photo, this appears to cover most of the postings etc, it's quite east to read right up to 'disembark' can anybody help with the details here? I'm familiar with BNAF and CMF it's the details to the left of these abbreviations which are not clear.
      "I'm hoping they point to my granddads role in then 9th Manchester's."

      IMG_7116_crop.jpg - sticking to main column:
      "Adm 5 Gen Hosp & posted X(2)" - Admitted 5 General Hospital etc
      "Tfrd to 10 Cen Depot" - Transferred to 10 Central Depot
      "Dis 10 Cen Depot to 159 T/Camp X/4)" - Discharged ... 159 Training Camp X(4)
      "TOS 2 CRU. Remains X/4)" - Taken On Strength 2 CRU. etc (CRU - Central Records Unit as a clerk in keeping with GSC enlistment ?)
      "TOS unit from 2 CRU" - undoing previous entry
      "Ceases to be entitled to Med Allwce" - ... Mediterranean Allowance
      "SOS unit to 310 Transit Camp X/8)(a)" - Struck Off Strength etc
      "Entrained for UK per 'B' Release &ses" ? " CMF" - going home (CMF)
    • "Ref picture 4, just struggling with the abbreviations after the 'home' posting. I'm assuming its a reserve unit?"
      IMG_7112_crop.jpg
      "Inf. (T) Res." - Infantry (Territorial) Reserve - to 1964
      "P / Res" - P Reserve
    • "The last point is on the last picture he was posted 13/11/43 to Newbiggin (I think) where is this? Was it a training area?"
      IMG_7117_crop.jpg
      As already fielded by Robert but just to add that Wikipedia list all of 10 Newbiggins in England
    Steve
     
  13. Chris Wizz

    Chris Wizz Member

    Thank you all very much.

    That certainly helps. I found reading all the abbreviations quite hard work. The way you have broken it down is great.
    With relation to the first section, what would the 9/78/44 etc relate to? I'm presuming 44 is the year.

    N/GTC I have always read this as M/GTC and thought it was machine gun training corps. What does it mean?

    So does this activity point to my grandad doing a more admin based role during the war? Family, namely my auntie who was born in 1939 says he was a tank driver and dispatch rider. But the 9th Manchester's were a M/G corps I believe.

    Sorry for all the questions and as ever I appreciate all the help.

    Chris
     
  14. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    I should warn you ;) that I'm first & foremost a family historian still picking up military expertise very serendipitously. That means I'm much better at reading quite a variety of old handwriting without necessarily being au fait with most of the acronyms. I'm also fortunate in having quite a good eye for detail ...

    Note that the column heading for 9/78/44 etc is "Part II Order" - though evidently datable by its last part, each of these entries crucially serves as the context for the dated event recorded beside it in the 2nd column. Being so key, it would be lovely if there were a database of these orders but I'm not aware of one - probably due to heavy weeding of the sheer bulk of them. Nor, sadly, do I know of a WW2 equivalent of The Long, Long Trail's handy How to interpret records of British soldiers of the First World War!

    Acronyms & abbreviations are a perennial headache - a few more resources being ...
    * Abbreviations - Research Material - WW2 Talk (with further links)
    * ABBREVIATIONS and ACRONYMS of WW2 and service records - WWII General - WWII Forums
    * Second World War Diaries Abbreviations - Your Archives (archived copy)
    * World War II Glossary | World War II Database
    ... from which I see:
    * CMF = Central Mediterranean Force
    * CRU = Civilian Repair Unit
    * GT Coy (=GTC?) = General Transport Company

    Steve
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    24 MGTC - I would have said was Machine Gun Training Centre.
    I thought we mentioned them on an earlier thread?
    http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/training-mgtc.htm

    The Depots of the Cheshire Regiment and Manchester Regiment formed No. 24 Machine Gun Training Centre at The Dale, Chester,
     
  16. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Thanks for that, Owen, I stand corrected - can't remember ever seeing an 'M' so fragmented before but knowing what to expect clearly helps more than hinders impartiality in this case. I even revised "Inf." to 'W' on comparing different versions - incorporated below ...

    Normally I'd recommend first collating all the scattered events into a single timeline, to read them in proper context to each other, so here goes to see how the family story squares with it:
    19 Nov '42 - enlisted - medical (A1)
    .......... - to 8 PTC, Beverley

    31 Dec ... - to Royal Armoured Corps
    .......... - to 53rd Training Regiment, Beverley
    30 Apr '43 - to 52nd Training Regiment, Calton
    13 Nov ... - SOS RAC
    14 ....... - to 9th Bn Manchester Regiment, Newbiggin
    12 Dec ... - embarked for N Africa
    25 ....... - disembarked
    11 Aug '44 - to 5 General Hospital
    .......... - posted X(2)
    22 ....... - to 10 Central Depot (XII List)
    _3 Oct ... - to 159 Training Camp X(4)
    _7 ....... - to 2 CRU - still at X(4)
    14 ....... - back to unit - still at X(4)
    30 Jun '45 - Mediterranean Allowance entitlement ceased
    14 Aug ... - authorised for release
    29 Oct ... - medical (A1)
    31 ....... - to 310 Transit Camp X(8)(a)
    10 Nov ... - entrained to UK
    13 ....... - to 24 Machine Gun Training Centre
    30 ....... - issued TA Record of Service Paper (AF-B200d)
    20 Dec ... - to W (Territorial) Reserve - Class B Release
    29 Nov '48 - to Y List E
    24 Apr '50 - issued 3 campaign medals
    10 Feb '54 - discharged
    11 ....... - to Army General Reserve Group P
    _8 Mar '57 - recall liability ceased on 45th birthday
    11 Apr ... - discharge confirmed


    Steve
     
  17. Chris Wizz

    Chris Wizz Member

    Thank you Red Goblin for all you're work on the list above. It looks great. I was surprised to discover that my grandad and im presuming most ex-soldiers, were retained long into he 50's.
    I will see how it also fits in to the events in his 1945 diary.
     
  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Noticed this abbreviation while looking at similar query in another thread, just thought I'd add this in case others find this thread later...

    CRU = Corps Reinforcement Unit

    2 Corps Rft. Unit | The National Archives
    Reference: WO 170/3820 [WO 170 = Italy]
    Description: 2 Corps Rft. Unit
    Date: 1944 Jan.- Dec.
     

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