Does anyone have any information or can recommend any books etc covering the mutiny in Salerno, September 1943 ? I have found 'Mutiny at Salerno' Cheers Ryan
There was a Timewatch about the mutiny of wounded 51st Division troops some years back and it is repeated on UK History. Is this the right episode? Also, are you still looking for reviewers for the Lunatics of WW1 book? I'd be quite happy to do so and can give you my qualifications for conducting such a service in a PM. Cheers Richard
I have found 'Mutiny at Salerno' Ryan The most well known book is the one you cite "Mutiny at Salerno : An Injustice Exposed". Are there no others mentioned in the bibliography? Of course, there is passing mention of the event in some of the books on Salerno and on Italy in general. However, you will probably find the most in "Mutiny in the British and Commonwealth Forces, 1797-1956" by James, Lawrence, available on Abes Books. Dick That is the correct episode.
Eric Morris's "Salerno: A Military Fiasco: and "Operation Avalanche," by Des Hickey and Gus Smith should cover this ground as well. "The Sharp End" by John Ellis has a great chapter on mliitary morale, including mutinies in general, this one in particular.
Just reading ‘Mutiny at Salerno’ now and only just realised that many of the reinforcements who had agreed to join X Corps units were quickly sent back to Sicily to rejoin their original units. Makes the whole sorry affair even more sad. Regards Tom
Hi Tom, if you are reading the MUTINY AT SALERNO AN INJUSTICE EXPOSED by Saul David, then i would say its a cracking book? Its the only book that I've read in a weekend sitting! First English Edition 1995. ISBN 1-85753-146-9 Hardcover. Its cheap has chips. For what its worth, I've read it twice. Hope you are well? Regards, Stu.
Hi Stu, Yes, really good book and impressive research in primary sources to back up the personal accounts from those involved, both the reinforcements and those who were involved in taking them to and from Salerno. It’s interesting that there is another thread on here talking about the ill-feeling between 1st Army and 8th Army formations. I would also expect there was a feeeling in some quarters that Monty and his 8th Army needed to be put back in their place and I wonder if this contributed to the poor man-management of the situation. Montgomery was certainly very rude about the qualities of the admin side of AFHQ, and was especially critical of the MGA. Given the subsequent return of those reinforcements who did agree to join 46th or 56th Division units to their old units within two weeks in many cases, it seems obvious that it was the breakdown in trust between the men and the officers that, as always, caused the trouble. I did like the honesty of the chap who had been posted into a ‘cushy’ stores job in his new battalion deciding to stay rather than rejoin a rifle company for the invasion of Europe. Given the casualties sustained by 50th and 51st Divisions in NW Europe that may well have been a good call. Regards Tom
In the early hours of this morning I read Tom's posting (reviving this thread after 14 years) and realised, to my shame, that I knew precious little about the Salerno mutiny despite having been in that area at the time in question. Yes, of course there were lots of rumours floating around at the time, but human nature being what it is I just kept my head down and carried on my duties as a Driver/Op. While still in bed I listened to Alexa (who quoted from Wikipedia) and later on when I got up I went to the article itself : Salerno mutiny - Wikipedia and read the complete, sorry story. It appears that finally good sense prevailed.but only after a lot of grief which still today makes unhappy reading. Go read for yourself......... Ron
John Gowan's recollection (although rather sketchy) of one of his former school mates involved in the Salerno mutiny was recorded by the IWM in his later years. I transcribed it here: Trooper John Gowan, 56 Recce - IWM Interview transcription ...….So when I went back we were across the Po then, or nearly across the Po - it was, because I reported in at Udine - that was almost on the bend of Italy, where it joins Yugoslavia, but one thing that they always did in our Division, and it keeps coming back to the Division, because that was your home really - Battleaxe. If you went into hospital, if you were wounded, or ill or whatever, they sent you to a transit camp, when you came out, with your papers you know, which meant you could go to any Regiment, that’s why they had that lot of trouble about them refusing to move off the beaches, I don’t know if you read about it. Wherabouts? Italy. They sent a lot of chaps over to Italy and they refused to get off the beach because they were going to a transit camp because… That was at Salerno was it? Yeah, yeah, well that’s another story, maybe I’ll tell you if you like when you’re not recording. Have you got some personal experience of that? No, but I knew the chap who was on it, I read about it in the papers, because they were regarded as mutineers you know. Can you tell me what you know about him? Well, he’s dead now, but he stuck out for years and years, to say it all boiled down to the fact, that when you leave your Regiment you want to get back to it, because it’s your mates there and your friends, and that’s what we did. In our Division, if you went to a transit camp, you’d find, if you stood near the gates, there would be one of our Division’s vehicles pass - you only had to look for the Battleaxe - you just had to go (presumably makes a hand gesture) and they’d get you off back to your own unit, and you didn’t bother with papers, you see you didn’t go to tell them I’ve found my unit can I have my papers. You just got on that vehicle and got away, at least you were with your own Division which meant you’d get back to your own unit. They didn’t understand that, the British Army, they think if you come out of hospital, they can post you where they like, they ignored the fact that you’d got mates you’d been with for three or four years fighting, relying on each other, they don’t realise that. Who is this gentleman that has died who told you about Salerno? Let me think now - they did a programme on television - the BBC have it. Yes I remember. Er Never mind it might come back to you later. Fred Joight?????, they called him. He lived in Hull and I went to school with him actually, and it wasn’t until a few years ago that, this bit in the paper, they were calling them mutineers and that, they had been in hospital with the 8th Army, the East Yorkshires, they’d been in hospital, and they dragged them out to go to Salerno, and when they got there they found they were going to be posted to different Regiments, not the East Yorkshires. This is what I say, surely somebody had the sense to think, well ‘cause their Regiment was over there - it’s so stupid, but there again redcaps don’t think that way, I don’t think, can’t do, you can’t take a man away from his mates you know when it’s like that. I don’t think so anyway. BBC - History - World Wars: Mutiny at Salerno: The Story and the Background Lesley
Hello Lesley, Hope you are well... I’ve done a lot of research on the Salerno Mutiny and the hard core, so called, mutineers were 192 men - 104 from 50th (Northumbrian) Division (albeit 6 were from the 231st Infantry Brigade that had only recently joined 50 Div), 83 from 51st (Highland) Division and 5 from Scottish Regiments not part of 51 Div but still 8th Army. There were 23 men in that number from 5 Bn East Yorkshire Regiment, 69th Infantry Brigade, 50 Div. All were Privates. No one from the Green Howards was included in this number, so Fred Joight was most likely 5EYR. I think this may actually be Pte. Fred Jowett, 5th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment, who is referred to a lot in Saul David’s wonderful book: Mutiny at Salerno 1943 - An Injustice Exposed. After the trial he was eventually posted to the 1st Bn Green Howards, 15th Infantry Brigade, 5th Division, in Italy and then after a spell in prison, in June 1945 to the 2nd Bn East Yorkshire Regiment; who were in Palestine. Best, Steve.
Another Salerno `Thread` I have updated the audio link with its new location Kyle Salerno Mutiny Audio
Further to my "re-dicovery" of the Salerno Mutiny, i was sufficiently interested to go to AMAZON KINDLE where for the paltry sum of 99p I bought myself "The Salerno Mutiny 1943" and later in the morning got Alexa to read it to me, cover to cover. Beautifully comprehensive book and one's sympathy was immediately aroused in the way that these ex-Desert Rats were treated. It also got me thinking about my own feelings when my Ack Ack Rgt was disbanded in December 1944 and I was kicked out of 78 Div and sent to Rieti to train as a tankie. By one of those quirks of fate, I was later to catch up with them again when my new unit, the 4th QOH carried the London Irish of 78 Div into battle using our Kangaroos, If you want to know more about the mutiny, go to Amazon now and get yourself a chea book or, if you are into Kindle, do what I did ! : https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07CGM8293/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 Ron .
Ron, Interested in your take on the ‘mutiny’ - how do you think your mates would have responded to them being posted to your unit? In hindsight, it looks more like ‘disobedience of a lawful order’ rather than mutiny. Regards Tom
Tom I would like to think we would have treated them better than the chaps who actually did so (at the time in question) The main point, I think, is that any Army dare not let any unit refuse to do as they were told when being ordered to move into action and so it was inevitable that drastic action be taken against them. It makes sorry reading today Ron
At the beginning there were officers amongst the so called mutineers and there is a quote in the Saul David book attributed to one on Page 46: I believe this sums up well the feeling of the men involved. They were in the main experienced fighting men who had been wounded in battle, some already had a chest full of medals. They were dreadfully deceived by the Army and bitter about their treatment. The Army was perfidious. Whilst reading the book I kept thinking ‘why didn’t someone of authority step forward and say the Army had made a mistake and the men would be returned to their own units’. That could have been done before they landed at Salerno. That said, I believe that once they landed at Salerno the men should have done as ordered. This is the only thing I disagree with them about in the whole sorry episode.
Ron, Steve, Thanks. Yes, Once there at Salerno they should have obeyed the orders given to join X Corps units I suppose, seems a shame though that they weren’t immediately fed into 8th Army which had just linked up with 5th Army at Salerno. More likely to trust eventual return to their unit? Regards Tom
Hi, I thought this extract from the history of the 7th Argylls was of interest in reflecting the resistance of Highland servicemen to being cross-posted at this time. Regards Tom
Wally Innes lived just up the street from me when growing up,a nice bloke I had no idea of his involvment at Salerno until after he passed away and Dad told me the tale,Dad served in Italy too and alway's thought it a great injustice how men who would have happily returned to their unit's without question but who had been lied to and miss- handled insuch a way.
