Multinational army in Italy

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Warlord, Jan 6, 2010.

  1. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I've always understood that the main reason behind the disbandment of the Light Ack Ack units was because the Luftwaffe had ceased to be a significant threat to the Allied Forces at that stage of the war in Italy.

    I went back to my personal diary and found this item:
    Friday 10th. November 1944
    Major General Hornby inspected us & told us we were being broken up!
    I asked Lt.Colonel Piggot what my chances were & he suggested R.A.C (Royal Armoured Corps)



    I also found this note in the Regimental Diary:

    On 3 Nov the CO saw the CRA and was told that the regt was to leave 78 Divand move to Tavernelle, near Lake Trasimeno for reorganisation on undisclosed lines. The possible changes could include disbandment.
     
  2. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    The United Nations were not formed until 1948 - so no one thought that far ahead

    Cheers

    Without looking for a fight :D, let me post this, found on History of the UN:

    "...In 1945, representatives of 50 countries met in San Francisco at the United Nations Conference on International Organization to draw up the United Nations Charter. Those delegates deliberated on the basis of proposals worked out by the representatives of China, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom and the United States at Dumbarton Oaks, United States in August-October 1944. The Charter was signed on 26 June 1945 by the representatives of the 50 countries. Poland, which was not represented at the Conference, signed it later and became one of the original 51 Member States.

    The United Nations officially came into existence on 24 October 1945, when the Charter had been ratified by China, France, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and by a majority of other signatories. United Nations Day is celebrated on 24 October each year."

    The new, postwar, world order, by the late years of the conflict, was very much alive in the minds of the leaders of the "Big Ones", specially the U.S., and even though Roosevelt first, and then Truman, weren´t exactly aware of Uncle Joe´s devious means, Churchill was, and maybe, just maybe, that was a reason (among others) for fielding such an internationally representative army in a theater where - so it was thought - this kind of untried mix would not be too harmful for the overall war effort.
     
  3. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Tom
    Again thanks it proves that the brains in charge lacked vision, my father was a dodger like you but with 4 Armoured then 6 Armoured Divs, which version of the song
    are you discussing as my musical friend knows seven with mostly PC words.
    The posts are interesting thanks guys it really has started a great debate and the views are teaching me a lot I did not know
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Oldman - I too finished up in 6th Armoured after hospital- and went on to Austria with the 16/5th Lancers

    Spidge - Thanks for your welcome - hope you are well as ever !

    Warlord - I might have been thinking of their move to New York in 1948- I knew that most of them met in San franny in '45...... they still aren't ahelluva lot of good are they - as bad as the old League of Nations.....

    Cheers
     
  5. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    The miltinational force in Italy did a good job against very stiff opposition and political manovering that plagues most UN deployments never surfaced or at least I have missed them in my reading.
    The clear sight after the surrender was signed to halt the Communist advance (Tito) by moving troops swiftly to garrison the area round Trieste and provide a united front whilst the rest of the army went for Austria to stop the so called werewolf units forming.
    The formation of the UN followed, Korea was one of the first mandated actions I beleive
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Oldman -
    I find it significant that since the UN (sic) took over the policing of the world - they haven't yet had a victory - so maybe they still need us old guys to show them how to do it - look at the record - Korea - Viet Nam - Kosova - Iraq (twice) now Afghanistan - IF they were serious there the poppy fields producing the Heroin which are killing the rest of the world would be long gone - instead they yammer on about Swine flu - Global warming - Climate change - One World Government et al - so quit fighting to get an oil pipeline through Afghanistan - or to bring democracy to people who have survived for 3000 odd years without it - and bring the lads back - on their feet !
    Cheers
     
  7. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    while many British and Commonwealth formations had been through the wringer.


    That is a fair comment.

    Not directed at you Warlord, but pet hate for me is that term 'sideshow' applied to military campaigns. I'd love to know what %&^* coined it, as it always makes me wince. Can't think of many funfair sideshows that have a casualty report.


    Not directed at you either Warlord but Australia did not have troops on the ground however 185 RAAF lads lost their lives supporting that "sideshow".

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  8. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    while many British and Commonwealth formations had been through the wringer.


    That is a fair comment.

    Not directed at you Warlord, but pet hate for me is that term 'sideshow' applied to military campaigns. I'd love to know what %&^* coined it, as it always makes me wince. Can't think of many funfair sideshows that have a casualty report.


    Not directed at you either Warlord. Australia did not have troops on the ground however 185 RAAF lads lost their lives supporting that "sideshow".

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  9. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Not directed at you Warlord, but pet hate for me is that term 'sideshow' applied to military campaigns. I'd love to know what %&^* coined it, as it always makes me wince. Can't think of many funfair sideshows that have a casualty report.

    Not directed at you either Warlord but Australia did not have troops on the ground however 185 RAAF lads lost their lives supporting that "sideshow".

    Cheers

    Geoff

    Of course I know it wasn´t a sideshow. Many good men fought and died in hellish battles and terrible conditions, so I used the term to illustrate a possible tendency of thinking armchair "soldiers" had in Whitehall and the Washington, which might have made them implement UN-predecessing (sorry for the use of the term Tom) experiments there.

    The clear sight after the surrender was signed to halt the Communist advance (Tito) by moving troops swiftly to garrison the area round Trieste and provide a united front whilst the rest of the army went for Austria to stop the so called werewolf units forming.


    Cold War rumbles...

    If someone was aware of this inevitable future, and Churchill surely was, the "World Crusade" theory (among others) could be picking up steam.
     
  10. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Hi Tom, welcome back. Good to see you on again!
     
  11. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    Not directed at you Warlord, but pet hate for me is that term 'sideshow' applied to military campaigns. I'd love to know what %&^* coined it, as it always makes me wince. Can't think of many funfair sideshows that have a casualty report.
    Gary, militarily the term sideshow is perfectly respectable and aptly descibes several major campaigns of WW2. You must understand terms like theatre (still in use), show, and sideshow as they were used at the time and not as we understand them now. In part it was to deal with the horror of war and a Good show! was something to be proud of. In military usage a sideshow is a subordinate matter or affair, and a show is a demonstration of main military strength.

    The earliest use of show in its military sense dates back to 1548 where in Halls Chronicles of Henry VIII we read "All the countrey of Arthrois and Picardie, fortified their holdes and made shewes as the Englishe army passed, but durst not assail them."

    The theatre was the scene of action where the military put on their shows and sideshows. It dates back to 1615. Mendell in Arts of War, published in 1879 says "The theatre of operations of an army embraces all the territory it may desire to invade and all that it may be necessary to defend."

    In modern times, a Daily Express headline of 18 March 1919 blared: Side shows. Sir Chas. Monro's despatch. Important minor operations.'

    And in 1931, T.E. Lawrence, in a letter quoted in the great 23 volume Oxford English Dictionary, says "Your war-history has become one of my constant reference books, for the main war; and that its chapters on the side-shows are so crisply black-and-white as to make exciting stories of them."

    Using the term properly and taking a retrospective view, the Italian campaign, hard and bitter as it was, became a side-show; the main shows were in France and on the Eastern front.
     
  12. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    The most bizarre case were Japanese Americans from 442 Infantry Regiment of US Army.
    Don't you think that the situation must have been humiliated for people who were mostly born at US?
    I mean, The way they were recruited?
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    GH - thanks for your welcome !

    Laufer - I don't quite understand what you mean for the US 422 Nisei Division to be associated with Humiliation - they were quite frankly way much better than many of the US divisions in Italy as in their fighting attitude and ability to get the job done - as I understand it - they were recruited normally with many volunteers in Hawaii which I believe was a part of the USA at the time -although the Union Jack is still shown on their Home Flag !

    Cheers
     
  14. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    GH - thanks for your welcome !
    Hawaii which I believe was a part of the USA at the time -although the Union Jack is still shown on their Home Flag !

    Cheers

    Hawaii's flag is always a good trivia question Tom.

    Another was Tuvalu (formerly Ellis islands) Of Gilbert & Ellis Islands who got their Independence from Britain in 1978. The government discarded the Union Jack. The Islanders raised hell and it was changed again to this.

    Hawaii
    180px-Flag_of_Hawaii.svg.png

    Tuvalu
    180px-Flag_of_Tuvalu.svg.png
     
  15. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    GH - thanks for your welcome !

    Laufer - I don't quite understand what you mean for the US 422 Nisei Division to be associated with Humiliation - they were quite frankly way much better than many of the US divisions in Italy as in their fighting attitude and ability to get the job done.

    In fact, a much decorated outfit:

    Official Award Records for the 442 RCT
     

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