Most Barbaric Army of the War?

Who do you think was the most barbaric and why? I am talking on the battlefield not organised slaughter such as the Holocaust. I am thinking on the battlefield and in the immediate rear areas.

Ross

 

Looking at this from a rather British perspective, I voted for Japan.

It's strange, but despite the fact that German atrocities against the British Army began as early as May 1940 (Le Paradis and Wormhout) they seem to have been isolated incidents. I suspect that those who have more knowledge of what went on on the Russian Front might think otherwise.

The way that the Japanese treated captured civilians and military personnel remains stomach-churning. Even those who came home were permanently damaged.

Even though it all happened sixty years ago, I prefer to avoid buying Japanese. The country will always be tainted by those images of British and Australian prisoners.

 

The Japanese seem to had the most systematic and calculated use of brutality.
The "Rape of Nanking" in the Sino-Japanese war.
And after the capture of Singapore, they went through the hospital wards where wounded soldiers were and bayonneted them in their beds.

Adrian

 

Another very difficult question.

Units of the German army committed some horrific atrocities however they were predominantly ad hoc.

The allied POW's (Soviets excluded) had a 98% chance of survival if incarcerated in Germany.

Germany committed terrible attrocities against the Soviets et al yet the Soviets reciprocated in kind by incarcerating Germans and their own people in Gulag's for many years. The Soviets under Stalin murdered millions and was a form of cleansing whether or not "ethnic" however cleansing all the same.

The Italians did not sit anywhere near the others as far as Barbarism goes however they too had some bad instances of maltreatment to allied POW's which was isolated to individual "Officers" and not collective mistreatment.

The Japanese military on the other hand committed appalling attrocities that were committed not only on combatants, but men and women, young and old, children, pregnant women, new born babies, nurses, doctors and of course the total barbarism metered out to POW's from the outset of hostilities in any given battle.

Between 32% & 35% of all POW's of the Japanese died!

I could go on for hours however I will leave the list of Japanese attrocities to support my choice of the Japanese as the worst overall.

Credit for this article below is to ww2pacific.com.
Full details are available at http://www.ww2pacific.com/atrocity.html
The site is well worth the visit.

A SHORT LIST OF THE DOCUMENTED AND PROVEN ATTROCITIES COMMITTED BY THE JAPANESE FORCES IN THEIR QUEST FOR A NEW CO-PROSPERITY SPHERE UNDER THE GUISE OF:
“ASIA FOR THE ASIATICS”

Nanking, China. Over 200,000 Chinese men used for bayonet practice, machine gunned, or set on fire. Thousands more were murdered. 20,000 women and girls were raped, killed or mutilated. The massacre of a quarter million people was an intentional policy to force China to make peace. It did not happen. World opinion, which until this time had accepted modern Japan's desire to oversee backward China, was repelled in horror.

New officers were indoctrinated to the expectations of war by beheading Chinese captives. The last stage of the training of combat troops was to bayonet a living human and a trial of courage for the officers. Prisoners were blindfolded and tied to poles; soldiers dashed forward to bayonet their target at the shout of "Charge!"

Combat medical units moved to China where live bodies were plentiful. If the class was in sutures, a Chinaman was shot in the belly for doctors to practice. Amputations? - then arms were removed. Living people was more instructive than work on cadavers, (a dead body to e dissected) the students need to get used to blood and screaming.

Bacterial warfare experiments conducted by an infamous medical unit moved to Manchuria. Bombs of anthrax and plague were tested on Chinese cities until the results were so good that too many Japanese soldiers also died. This unit also practiced vivisection. See more details of unit 731, along with web citations for those with the stomach.

Korean Comfort Women "forced by the Imperial Japanese Army to repeatedly provide sex for Japanese soldiers throughout Asia are said to number between 80,000 and 200,000. Many of the victims were underage at the time, and either died in despair or suffered health impairments. These women, who suffer from mental and physical pain, not to mention social isolation and prejudice, are now seeking an official apology from the Japanese government and individual compensation as a measure to rehabilitate their honour." - Aug 2002

Malaya. Japanese troops decapitated 200 wounded Australians and Indians left behind when Australian troops withdrew through the jungle from Muar.
Singapore. Japanese soldiers bayonet 300 patients and staff of Alexandra military hospital 9 Feb 1942. British women had their hands behind their backs and repeatedly raped. All Chinese residents were interviewed and 5,000 selected for execution.

Wake Island. A construction crew of 1,200 mostly Idaho youths, captured when Wake Island fell, were shipped to Japanese prison camps. Five were beheaded to encourage good behaviour on the trip. The Japanese decided to keep 100 of the civilian contractors on the island to complete the airbase, which became functional in 1943. When US Navy planes attacked the island, the Japanese commander executed the civilians.

Dutch East Indies. Those Dutch accused of resisting Japan or participating in the destruction of the oil refineries had arms or legs chopped off. 20,000 men were forced into the ocean and machine gunned. 20,000 women and children were repeatedly raped, then many were killed.

Dutch Borneo. The entire white population of Balikpapan was executed.
Java. The entire white male population of Tjepu was executed. Women were raped.
Survivors of USS Edsall (DD-219) are beheaded.

Philippines. Any soldier captured before the surrender was executed.
The Bataan Death March -- 7,000 surrendered men died. Those that could not keep up the pace were clubbed, stabbed, shot, beheaded or buried alive.
Once the prison camp had been reached, disease, malnutrition and brutality claimed up to 400 American and Filipinos – EACH DAY.

Thailand. 15,000 military prisoners and 75,000 native labourers died building a railroad between Bangkok and Rangoon. Bridge Over the River Kwai.
Doolittle Raid, Japan. Three of eight US airmen captured were executed.
Doolittle Raid, China. 25,000 Chinese in villages through which the US flyers escaped were slaughtered in a three month reign of terror.

Midway. Japanese destroyers rescued three U.S. naval aviators; after interrogation, all three were murdered.

Attu. Japanese troops overran the medical aid station; after killing the doctors, they bayoneted the wounded.

Makin Atoll (Kiribati). Nine of Carlson's Marine raiders were left behind, hid for two weeks and surrendered. They were beheaded a few weeks later when a ship was not available to take them to a prisoner of war camp.

USS Sculpin. Forty-two of submarine Sculpin's crew were picked up by Yamagumo. One, severely wounded, was thrown overbroad. Survivors were forced to work in the copper mines at Ashio until released at the end of the war.

Indian Ocean. Capt Ariizumi, ComSubRon One, commanded submarine I-8 in the Indian Ocean. On March 26th, 1944, he collected from the water and massacred 98 unarmed survivors of the Dutch merchantman Tjisalak he'd sunk south of Colombo. He repeated this performance with 96 prisoners from the American Jean Nicolet in the Maldives on July 2nd. He destroyed the lifeboats and dived, leaving 35 bound survivors on deck. 23 managed to untie their bonds and swim all night to be rescued by the Royal Indian Navy. Capt Ariizumi committed hara-kiri while his squadron was being escorted to Yokosuka by the U.S. Navy.

I-26 is also known to have rammed merchant lifeboats from Richard Hovey and machine-gunned those in the water.

3Aug45. Japanese hospital ship Tachibana searched by Charrette (DD-581) when observed throwing weighted bags overboard. Found thirty (30) tons of ammunition, mortars, and machine guns in Red Cross boxes along with 1,500 soldiers released from hospital on Kai bound for Soerabaja.

Japan. Eight US airmen were used for medical dissection at Kyushu Imperial University with organs removed while the prisoners were still alive.

Bushi, the way of the soldier, was the creed of the Japanese in the Pacific War. It was not that long ago. The story of atrocities created under a pagan code is suppressed today in the interests of good will with a business partner. Less we forget. Civilization in only a veneer over other instincts of mankind.

History tells mass murder comes in many names, of Attila, Genghis Khan, and Tamerlane. Hundreds of Indians and settlers were slaughtered like buffalo. Within the living lifetime: Stalin purged twenty-some millions of his own people. Mao may have topped him during 1949-76. Nazi gave final solution to five or six millions. Kurds have lost millions. The Chamer Rouge killed 1.6 million. Less we forget. Hope for peace, but be prepared to resist savagery.
________________________________________
One Act of Compasion :
While the Japanse were destroying the US forces in the Philippines, a pilot dropped a message saying they intended to destroy the facility next to the base hospital and that we should we move the patients. We did. They did.
________________________________________
Additional reading. The Knights of Bushido: the Shocking History of Japanese War Atrocities
by Lord Edward Fredrick Russell, Dutton, 1958. Companion volume to his The Scourge of The Swastika.
Some items from the book.
• Jan 1942. Dutch naval POWs taken to the spot where their ship had fired on a Japanese destroyer, decapitated and thrown into the sea.
• 16Feb42. British evacuees from Singapore on the island of Bauka surrendered to a Japanese detail. The 26 soldiers were executed, the 22 Army nurses were marched into the sea and machine gunned, the twelve stretcher cases were bayoneted. -- Story told by the surviving nurse, who, though shot, was washed ashore.
• March 1942. Kota Radja, Indonesia. Dutch prisoners put on a barge, towed out to sea, shot and thrown overboard.
• 7 Oct 43. Wake Island. On the order of RAdm Sakibara, 96 prisoners were blindfolded, hands tied behind their backs and massacred.
• Oct 1944. New Guinea. A battalion commander confessed after the war, "I asked if I could get an American POW and kill him." Two were delivered, blindfolded, stabbed with a bayonet and decapitated with shovels.
• 12 Nov 44. New Britain. US fighter pilot made a forced landing. Beheaded, flesh cut form his body, cut into small pieces, fried and served to a large group of officers.
• 14 Dec 44. Palawan, Philippines. About 100 army and 50 marines had been warned if the US invades, they would be killed. When American planes attacked, Lt. Sato led 50 soldiers to pour buckets of gasoline on the entrances to shelters and ignite it. As the men came out they were bayoneted, shot or clubbed. -- Told by one of five survivors who escaped through a fence, shedding his burning clothes. Last Man Out.
• 12 Nov 45. Guam. The flesh of LTjg H___, aviator, was served to an infantry battalion. [The Japanese order for this communion-like sacrifice was captured.]
Russell concentrates on events sanctioned by higher authorities as documented by War Crimes Trial, whereas I have extracted events from readings. Although many leaders practiced human treatment, the norm was total indifference, and bestial behaviour was a totally accepted.

Use of Allied prisoners of war for slave labour by Japanese companies is discussed in: "Unjust Enrichment" by Linda Goetz Holmes, 2001.

Her 1994 book, "4000 Bowls of Rice: A Prisoner of War Comes Home", is about Allied prisoners of the Japanese who built the Burma Railway.

"Last Man Out: Glenn McDole, USMC, Survivor of the Palawan Massacre in World War II" by Bob Wilbanks.
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Had to go with Japan, milk and cookies keeping you up Geoff?

 

Had to go with Japan, milk and cookies keeping you up Geoff?

17:21 Sunday afternoon here. 03:21 your neck of the woods?

 

Yep, no question of Japan for me, the Russians and the Germans did commit some attrocities (mainly against each other) but overall the Japanese were a lot worse.

 

None of em really... They all behaved in a manner accepted by their cultural norms and to label it barbaric is somewhat pointless as we are viewing it with our own 21st century morals and mindset.

Why not use Isreal or Iran as examples? It would be of more relation to our own period than judging a force from 60+ years ago with morals and ethics from a different generation.

 

Great point in theory with respect to the Japanese however they did not utilise that barbaric behaviour in the first world war and when they joined with the British in the Far East against the Bolsheviks so its rejuvination of barbarism was reborn after that period.

We maybe, but not our fathers and grandfathers who were part of that era. This is not looking at this period in hindsight, this is written history by people who lived through this and are still alive today. It was thought barbaric then and it is still barbaric today.

[/quote]

Bcause we are discussing WW2!

 

With regards to the view of veterans, then that is valid but limited by their own perception and bias to how they saw the war and who they fought. The response would also be tinged by the propaganda prevelent at the time.

Lets be honest, Japanese forces did little in WW1. I would disagree with the statement based upon Japanese actions in the Russo-Japanese war. Also their cultural belief system and their 'Way of the Samurai' has always placed military prowess high and scorned the 'coward'. In short the Japanese way of war has always held human life in little regard.

However does this make them barbaric?

To Western ideals, yes it does. But to their own culture it does not. While the acts they committed may have been terrible, they were merely acting in a manner in which Japanese forces have acted for centuries. The Japanese Army in WW2 was an essentially medieval fuedal army equipped with modern weapons. Its acts or crimes were merely a repition of those seen in Japanese warfare of other early periods.

My point is that it is too subjective to make a real point on this question. I dont think we can brand X the most barbaric as war by nature, is barbaric.

The Japanese treatment of POWs was horrific, but was it any worse than the German treatment of Russian POWs or the Russian treatment of German POWs?

The real problem comes down to the fact that on an Anglo-Saxon based forum, with the majority of people from a Western British, American or Australian background the Japanese will always appear more barbaric as the Germans treated our POWs reasonable well and we had no direct contact with the Russians.

The effect the Japanese had has ingrained itself on the public conciousness.


Personally I think most nations fight wars as barbaric as they can... Its how you win.

 

None of em really... They all behaved in a manner accepted by their cultural norms and to label it barbaric is somewhat pointless as we are viewing it with our own 21st century morals and mindset.

A very good point which I tend to agree with. The major problem historians and many other people bring to a questions such as this is their own cultural morals and ethics. By todays standards what happened was terrible but by the standards of the day it was to some degree acceptable. A similar arguement has been used with strategic bombing campaign of WW2. By todays standards it is consider barbaric, however, by the standards of the day the methods used were completely acceptable.

Ross

 

Exactly.

Though personally, I have never seen the problem with the bombing campaign in Germany.

You reap what you sow.

 

We are talking about veterans who were "guests" of the Japanese in large numbers and were by no means "tinged" by the propaganda. The 1000's of POW's were living testament to the barbaric acts of the Japanese.

I didn't mention the Russo-Japanese war of 1905. They joined with Britain against the Bolsheviks in 1918 & 1919 at Murmansk & Vladivostok etc.

That would explain the bayonetting of pregnant women, cutting babies out of the womb, parading babies at the end of a rifle speared by a bayonet.
I am unable to accept your "Way of the Samurai" as an excuse.

Because that is how their actions are judged by westerners. Just because they revert to "Way of the Samurai" does not excuse their actions.

They knew their actions were against the rules of war that existed at the time. That is why they attempted to destroy as much of the evidence, both written and physical so they could escape the post war wrath of the allies.

Their bravery in fighting is not in question here and never has been.

German and Soviet atrocities were "tit for tat" as both regimes created killing fields against each other for what the other had done. This was not the case with the Japanese. Their actions in some Asian conquests was nothing less than ethnic cleansing.

Yes, as above!

This does not hold any water whatsoever. What reaction would we receive from an Asian based forum in Singapore, China, Burma, Indonesia or any other country that the Japanese invaded.

With good reason!

[/quote]

I do not feel that statement is true however it may be a topic for another thread.

 

A very good point which I tend to agree with. The major problem historians and many other people bring to a questions such as this is their own cultural morals and ethics. By todays standards what happened was terrible but by the standards of the day it was to some degree acceptable. A similar arguement has been used with strategic bombing campaign of WW2. By todays standards it is consider barbaric, however, by the standards of the day the methods used were completely acceptable.

Ross

I do agree with part of the statement in respect to strategic bombing and the reflection today as barbaric however the allies eventually had more Aircraft and bigger bombs in reaction to the bombing of British cities by Germany.

The analogy does not refer to the specific atrocities of the Japanese. against a defenceless populace.

Their barbarism was not thought acceptable then and would not be thought acceptable now.

 

But how much of the Japanese war crimes are true and how much is propaganda?

Dont forget the Germans in WW1 were accused of bayonneting babies and such.

I dont disagree with your points, Im merely trying to put the view that one persons view is often coloured by their regional and cutural influences. Not to mention moral and ethical standards from their time.

I have met veterans who were POWs of the Japanese. These are men who can certainly say the Japanese were barbaric, but my point was that did the Japanese think themselves barbaric or did their culture validate their actions from their point of view?

Certainly the Japanese Army fought WW2 in a manner more akin to the medieval period with a total disregard for the local populous and the vanquished enemy.

But they acted due to a different set of cultural ideals and standards. This does not excuse their behaviour, but begs the question that can they be deemed 'Barbaric' if we judge them by a set of standards which are not their own.

A similar arguement could be presented for the Viet Cong or the present situation in the Middle East.

I personally think most of the three armies behaved in a barbaric manner, but its interesting that we have instantly removed British, Commonwealth and Americans from the list of choices in the voting list and include only three countries from a war. How can we decide who is the most barbaric if we only have three of the participants to choose from?

As Mahross points out the bombing of Germany has been seen as barbaric by some, then we have the use of the Atom bomb, the use of gas by the Italians in Ethiopia and the stories of US Airborne troops bayonetting wounded German troops.

War is fundamentally barbaric - It is the use of violence with the aim of ending another persons life.

 

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I have to say I consider the Russian advance towards Germany and the murders, rapes and barbarity of it to be about the worst of the WW2 acts of barbarity. Right up, in fact, with the deliberate targetting of civilians by the RAF.

I have heard it cogently argued by a member of the Military History section of the MI that the Japanese 'hatred' of whites during WW2 could be directly linked to the severe loss of face the Japanese suffered when the US forced them to open to trade in the 1700s.

Kiwimac

 

I am inclined to agree with a line by Martin Windrow in which he said that the Allies were on the right side "...of perhaps the only undeniably just war in history."

I do not feel that the nature and scale of the Japanese deeds can be in any way compared with the actions of the Allies.

I do not think either that we should fall into the trap of saying that morals and norms were different at that time. The bayoneting of pregnant women and of children should be repugnant to the very nature of any human being regardless of the society of which they form a part.

If we use the convenient label of "civilised" for those basic human values and "barbaric" for the opposite then the Officially condoned actions of the Japanese can only be described as Barbaric in the extreme.

I quite agree that war is, by it's very nature, barbaric but the gratuitous actions of the Japanese went far beyond the prosecution of war.

 

17:21 Sunday afternoon here. 03:21 your neck of the woods?


It was a quote from the movie Bladerunner. I cast my line out for a pm but look what you got on the end of yours. Let me know if you need the gaffer.


***Applying breaks, longest screech ever heard skidding for 2 miles(426 Hemi) Kitty a moderator, the worm has definately turned***

 

It was a quote from the movie Bladerunner. I cast my line out for a pm but look what you got on the end of yours. Let me know if you need the gaffer.


***Applying breaks, longest screech ever heard skidding for 2 miles(426 Hemi) Kitty a moderator, the worm has definately turned***

Spinning Pete, Spinning!