More Defence Cuts

Discussion in 'Postwar' started by Jedburgh22, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Well here we go again, politicians cutting the forces to save money (OK, I can go with that) and then some jumped up megalomaniac kicks off in Libya, or is getting kicked off, and hey presto we don't have the capability to intervene, interdict or impress, as we've just got rid of our Harriers and through deck crusiers, yes I know we still have the ships, but we've no planes to fly off them. Still, we'll still be able to do this when our new £5bn carriers are built, sometime in the future!

    Well done our ministers, is not a governments first responsibility is to protect it's citizens? Pity we can't!. Even the Austrians! (who are they?), along with the Germans and French (they don't seem to mind jumping in without consulting anybody, when it's nobodies business but theirs) managed to get their military planes to Tripoli, whilst one of our two, late chartered, planes had "technical" problems, probably our cheque would not clear the bank!

    And well done to our ex top military men, for letting the government know what they believe will be the result of all this disarming, why couldn't they tell them this while they were still climbing the greasy pole of ambition and career! Perhaps that's why they're ex!

    And finally, yers, why do we give millions in aid to countries who have nuclear weapons, space programs and strong, vibrant, growing economies, oh yes and rampant corruption, massive tax avoidance and loads of poor people? whilst we have to tighten our belts, accept higher taxation for little return, fight a war and reduce our defence, encourage growth whilst making loads of workers unemployed - sorry, sorry I thought I was dreaming, or going mad - oh no, it's reality and sad to say I voted for this!!
     
  2. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    If you look back at the previous revolutions; French, Russian, Cuban, Iranian etc - the populist revolution soon gets hijacked by the extremists who are generally much more authoritarian than that they replaced. In the coming years the strategic situation in the Middle East will be much changed, with a great danger for the western nations who now have significant ethnic populations from these areas.

    I listened to Liam Fox a defence secretary with little creedence and a poor grasp of the realities of air warfare, glibly state that combat air operations over Libya could be mounted from UK or Cyprus, the whole carrier concept is to move the airhead close to the scene of the action enabling aircraft to turn around between strikes much more quickly and to have a longer loiter time over the target, the thought of a unit waiting for close air support on the ground having to wait for fast movers to scramble from UK doesn't bear thinking about! I think one of the most popular Defence Secreataries was Jim Callaghan who had experienced war in the Navy in WWII and understood the complex realities of Defence.
    Foreign Aid seems to be the new Danegeld - why we should be giving aid to such countries as Russia, China, and India all countries with growing economies and large armed forces as well as being nuclear powers - as well as Pakistan to which our aid is set to double - a nation renowned for corruption and a wealthy class who pay little tax.
     
  3. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I saw a letter in the DT yesterday where writer was complaining about the Hercules now being scrapped.He must have seen the trailers hauling them to the axe man.However I would think that these are the older types,much older than the current C-130Ks which have only being in service some 12-13 years.

    Nothing comes out of the MOD as a surprise now. Axe man Fox is liable to behave again irrationally.If you saw those Hercules,I would think that they were C-130K types,in the western desert the last few days.Well it would not surprise me if this relatively young fleet was cut back to accomodate the Airbus A400M entry to service.The Airbus 400M was originally intended to replace the older Hercules now being gutted and another option would be to cancel the Airbus A400M.

    If the Airbus A400M was cancelled,this would leave us with an airlift capacity of about two dozen Hercules C-130ks plus the few C-17 Globemasters presently in service.After the experience of the last few weeks,I cannot see the Hercules C-130Ks being cut back but I would like to think that I am a rational man.

    A "smaller" airlifter such a the Hercules (C-130K) should always have an integral part to play in the future mix of airlifters.The total airlifter requirements need to be fully understood if the RAF is to support ad hoc operations such as those recently.The airlifter fleet should be based on N+x when N is the capacity based on the RAF normal workload to support the nations commitments and x the figure to arrive at for peaks and contingencies.(As a simple analogy,if your electricity supplier only generated electricity to cover the average demand and did not have spare capacity to cover the peak demand,consumers would be off suppy at the peak times.)

    To cover x,there seems to be too much dependancy on contractors to deliver in ad hoc situations.No doubt those politicians in overall charge can easily blame these people of falling short in delivering performance rather than take the responsibility themselves.Requisitioning civilian equipment has always been the norm in time of war and we take the chance on the quality of the gear we requistion but there appears to be little in place at the moment to guarantee the equipment hired, is up to reliability.

    Meanwhile we are told that Trident is essential to protect the state and a 30 £billion investment is required.As I see at the moment there seems be more energy put into the project as regards the debate on its funding than anything else.Fox thinks that the Treasuary should foot the bill while wee George thinks that the money should come out of the MOD budget.If we are to have the weapon,the funding will come out of the same source,the tax payer.

    It seems to me that these politicians love to exercise the internal market.

    As regards RAF strength and the slash and burn of its people assets.My cousin's granddaughter is married to young man working up a RAF career as a Hercules pilot.I can tell you that he has scant regard for the ragbags in present charge of things.

    Saw Haque drop a howler yesterday when taking about the RAF."We have the capability for the future" he said. Must be the PR coaching.

    Not much, if any, flying hours being done above the skies of Lincolnshire.
     
  4. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

     
  5. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    The government plans to initiate a no-fly zone over Libya on the same day that 2 Tornado GR4 squadrons are told to disband in June - the same aircraft type that enforced the Iraq no-fly zones for nearly 20 years. You couldn't make it up.

    Roxy
     
  6. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    When I was a young man many years ago the Army (and the rest of the Forces) offered one of the best education and training systems for young men (not many women then) who had often been failed by the State system. We still had a presence in the Gulf with some prepositioned equipment that gave regional powers pause for thought. However down the years the procurement equipment has been a profiteering exercise and remains so, we have whittled away our capabilities to where we can no longer really mount a large intervention in areas of strategic interest and now the clarion call is more integration with a European defence force. We need an independent review of or defence requirements, equipoment and capabilities and the political will to implement it. We are at present in a 1930s state - the cupboard is almost bare and the world shows signs of going into another meltdown politically.
    As well as the defence review the nation needs to reinvest in our engineering base so we will have a base from where to rearm if necessary.

    I remember when I was at school (ahh, so many years ago), I was a bit usless, played rugby, did a bit of boxing, got into scrapes. So when it came to careers advice:
    a. I didn't get any
    b. I didn't want any

    So having had a bit of a laugh in the army cadets, (Earl of Chesters' Yeomanry later 3rd Dragoon Guards) I decided to join the army - Junior Leaders - I took the tests and because I was only 16 (not yet 'and 3/4') I had to get my parents permisssion. As my father was ex - RAF (WWII) he cuffed me and threw the papers in the fire! Which prevented me joining the Infantry JLR wiith a focus on the Gren Gds.

    Then after serving an apprenticeship (7 years, not NVQ 3 years) I qualified as a plant reconditioning engineer, was made redundant and then joined the REME, did 22 years and had a good time doing it (and that includes my wife).

    I've written all this because it seems to me that many youngsters don't want to stay at school until - it could be 18 in the future. And all that energy could be put to better use, than hanging about on street corners. I saw on the Midlands TV the other day that cadet forces were coming back into schools and ex soldiers been trained as teachers. I'm not suggesting the 'Hitler Youth' as the PC brigade imply, but it does teach self-respect, duty, other than to yourself, determination and finding out that you don't have to be Bamber Gascoigne to achieve in this world, just a decent reliable citizen.
     
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I saw the programme too. Bit puzzled though as they made this out to be a new thing. I know of two schools back in the 80's and 90's one in London the other in Yorkshire that had, or may well still have a CCF (Combined Cadet Force) after school training programme.

    Combined Cadet Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  8. ww2ni

    ww2ni Senior Member

    I have tried not to let this subject annoy me however I feel obliged to make a comment.

    Our Politicians are continuing to reduce, demoralise and steep continuing pressure on our overstretched Armed Forces. - These are the same politicians who are now considering how to get involved militarily in Libya.

    Our soldiers will have NO R&R if this continues - Less Troops and more deployments.

    Meanwhile the U.K. is in serious financial difficulty however we continue to send millions of pounds in "Aid" to various people and places. - This includes the Farmers of Afghanistan whose crop id the Poppy which is used to produce Heroin for the dealers and users on our streets.

    Surely the financing of the production of illegal drugs is a serious criminal offence??? - So why is our Government doing it with OUR money???
     
  9. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Heard Philip Hammond pontificating today.We are reducing the RAF's aircraft to make them more proficient and make servicing better, he uttered.Seems to me that they are scraping the barrel in the PR teach ins.

    Used the term rationalising but in reality the RAF will be reduced to two types of air lifters,(will there be financial room for the Airbus A400M) two fighter types and two helicopter types. Did say that trained pilots will not be declared redundant.

    Great Britain is in the financial state purely because of the greed of the banks.Buying debt without due diligence from others,the majority of it in the US, as I see it and who have passed the debt down to the British banking mugs who thought they could make a quick profit in it.

    As Eddie George has said recently,the people who caused the problem are not feeling the adverse effects of this.
     
  10. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    Easy answer conscript all Bank staff and put them on MOD salaries comensurate with their rank till all bank losses are repaid the saved money on salaries and taxes could go to repaying the debt they created i9n the first place!
     
  11. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Great Britain is in the financial state purely because of the greed of the banks.

    So the government spending more than it 'earns' isn't a problem, then?
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  12. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Who represents the MOD and its staffs?.According to Cameron and his coherts,none are proficient of course,maybe because they are public servants.As such, anybody can put the boot in to this group.

    Saw a report of a speech made by the good doctor speaking to a right wing group regarding the MOD 's "failings".He stressed, of course, that the MOD shortcomings would have not occurred in the private sector.

    It is obvious that he has little knowledge of the cock ups in British industry and commerce over the years.I would have though that Fox is old enough to remember the operational management failings by P&O when the Spirit of Free Enterprise V was lost with nearly 200 victims in March 1987.
     

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