Monty's Moonlight / Artificial Daylight Attack 17th Sept. 1944

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by von Poop, Apr 16, 2006.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew / Tom -
    The CDL was a different kind of ball game - it was primarily a flat beam to go direct into the enemy's eyes.......

    "Artificial Moonlght" on the other hand was meant to bounce off cloud cover and bend the light downwards on the enemy to both blind them to disorientation and to light the way for the attackers....

    The main trouble with the first use of this on 17th Sept '44 was that the beams were too flat - (as can be seen on the picture) and thus lit up the whole battlefield and what looked like a whole battalion of the 4th Division paid the price..

    With a bit more practice the system improved plus the onset of winter brought more clouds over the areas of use and it became a succesful tactic. Don't know of any books on the subject though....

    Cheers




    Cheers
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Tom,

    Did it have a Operation Name? It may be easier to research that way :unsure:
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew - we just called it "Artificial Moonlight" it was an extension of the CDL and was used later by the Canadian AGRA after Rimini was taken at the back end of September and agin on the Po River area.

    Cheers
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew / TCS
    Here is a fair report on the Artificial Moonlight - sounds American though and as they never used it - they can only repeat reports on it's use by others - it was also used in WW1 as iut was u invented ( developed) by Gen Fuller who also was instrumental in developing the "blitzkreig" warfare with Gen. Swindon and Liddel- Hart - and which the British failed to acknowledge but Guaderin - Manstein - Model Rommel studied extensively......

    Artificial Moonlight, WWII Tactical and Technical Trends, No. 57, April 1945 (Lone Sentry)
     
  6. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    It was sometimes referred to as "Monty's artificial Moonlight". 5th Camerons suffered from it giving the defenders a view of the attackers, in the attack on Schijndel. 23 October 1944. They lost 8 officers and 63 other ranks in one night.
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    51st HD -
    Not as bad as 23 Octber '42 then

    Chers
     
  8. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    My dad wasn't happy with either party !!!
     
  9. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Thanks for the replies.
    It seems that not too much has been written on the subject.

    Considering a lot of men were lost by the 4th Div, I personally thought that it deserved more of a mention than a simple sentence in the Book, which is the history of the 4th Div in WW2.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    TCS - while what you say is relevant about 4th Divs losses at Coriano - it should be noted at that particular time - 8th Army was losing around 1000 per day in killed and wounded - the CCS at Ancona was full to bursting.....so a few losses in a few hours was not a great big deal and probably hardly worth mentioning...it happened !

    Cheers
     
  11. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Tom,
    I agree with you on the high numbers of casualties from all that took part in the operation.

    I was looking at it more from the point of view that this was the first time the 'Artificial Daylight' was used in Italy and just thought it was worthy of more of a write up.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  12. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    I am presuming this was the first use in Italy, as I know it was used in Normandy in August '44?
     
  13. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Paul,
    According to what I have read that is correct, the first use in Italy on the 17th Sept 1944.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  14. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    I am presuming this was the first use in Italy, as I know it was used in Normandy in August '44?

    It was also used before that, by the Canadians in July 44. Verrieres I think it was, operation Spring.
     
  15. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Thanks for that - I had thought it was used in July, but wasn't entirely sure. I remember reading an account of the Black Watch of Canada, but couldn't remember whether it was July or August.
     
  16. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Did this same approach work against the Russian on the Seelowe Heights ?
    Was it also employed at El Alamein ?
     
  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    James 2 -
    TheRussians at Seelowerab -n into the same problems as did the 4th Div at Coriano and took a great many casualties ......doubt if it was used at El Alemein although Monty was pretty forward looking - I din't think the system a was quite ready i '42...

    Here is a link to a fair discussion we had on this same subject some time ago - with Peter G and others...
    Cheers

    WW2 - The Second World War: 'The Canal Defence Light'
     
  18. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Cheers Tom will take alook on that. :)
     
  19. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    Whilsy trawling through one of the war Diaries I found this and remembered the thread: it's a report on the effectiveness of Artificial moonlight and I remembered this thread. Apparently it gave something for the captured prisoners to talk about.

    Appologies for the poor quality: I hope its readable, i'm not very good at re-sizing. The first one is hard to read, but the second is easier... if you *really* *really* squint. You have to believe you can read it.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=82&pictureid=1560

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=82&pictureid=1561
     
  20. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Merged with the 'Monty's moonlight' thread, as Brian had something to say on the subject.
     

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