Missing Ciné film from 6th Airborne landings

Spot the Waco too! I don’t know if I’m right, but the Hamilcar paint always looks a slightly lighter / brighter shade compared with the Horsas you see? Based on that, that wreckage could be a big H. Makes sense with the account of being obviously close to the MDS.

 

An interesting story with some good material.

Man did we ever kick this thread sideways - ha! Wonder if we could get a Mod to stick everything from post 29 forward (or earlier?) in a new thread and call it something like "Reporter Stanley Maxted's Operation Varsity Experience". ... Just a thought.

Regards ...

 

Its coming up with the remaining wing at between 13m and 14m so probably a Hamilcar but not as certain as the others (espushialy as the image above is cropped in quite close so a bit harder to geo-reference. Its position in the middle of the field makes me think it probably isn't the one in question as the hedge and ditch don't look to be present "somehow Peter and I hurled ourselves out of the mess into a shallow ditch by a hedge".

They were then transported via the hood of a Jeep to the dressing station, and Maxted is quoted saying "On the way I saw burning gliders, crashed gliders, and the great courage....." these gliders and men are presumably therefore those on DZ U.

There is a ditch on the eastern side of the railway within DZ U just south east of the image showing the Hamilcar wreckage and only about 45m from the tracks. The Larger named ditch to the east is also a possibility but probably too big to warrant being called "shallow". Both can be seen on the attached map, to which I have also added the positions for the gliders from the image above.

Data
- Background Mapping: © OpenStreetMap contributors

 

Yeah sorry about derailing things a bit, probably best leaving the original 3 posts that outline the fact I was 100% wrong about the footage and there is no connection between the transcript and Australian Footage, or connection between that footage and the story of the lost footage from the original thread (which is, in part, what made me think to bring it up in the first place, as I had wondered for a while whether the story had got mixed up with my grandfathers story of loosing a trailer of equipment to a mine at varsity, which I'm now pretty sure is unrelated as he never specified what equipment, and I now know CN 277's never contained film equipment anyway). I can also edit my original post to note the above conclusion and clear up any confusion with people entering the original thread in the future.

In addition, going back to the original thread I will probably try and track down the 716 gliders at Normandy at some point too (although will do this in a separate thread to avoid confusion),I have been thinking about possibly mapping the movements of the photographers and media personnel using the same sources and mapping software to see if that can bring some new information to the table about what may have happened to the D-Day footage.

 

So, here's a wider cropping:


And another one, from an aerial just south of the above:

 

This aerial of LZ 'U' from the GPR Report (CD) is very poor quality. The circled glider that caught my attention and marked lies close to the tracks near the one alberk pointed to. A possibility that would be nice to see in better quality. Of course it will be downsized on here (from 400+ kbs to 60 kbs).



Regards ...

 

Whoops missed alberk's latest better quality aerials. The one I pointed to looks like a Horsa.

Regards ...

 

Right where I was thinking it could be too!, shame it comes out as ~27m wingspan so most likely a Horsa and as you suspect! and not our Hamilcar.

Regarding alberk's wingspan for the ? glider, the (our) left hand wing looks to be 15m so consistent with Hamilcar although the contrast between the wing and trees isn't great so I could be over estimating hear. The Right hand wing and total width is definitely less than 34 (close to 30), so if it is a Hamilcar it either had a very close to tree coloured (our) right wing tip, or lost its wingtip (presumably in the collision with the trees)

I do think Alex1975uk has a point about the colour scheme / wing camouflage patterning too, which if correct would make this a Hamilcar.

 

Hi,

Don't know what to think about alberk's glider in the hedgerow - possibly a Hamilcar ...?

As for the photo of glider in background referred to in opening thread post (Normandy) I have a theory that it is a Tonga glider rather than a Mallard one, which won't be well received.

CN 37-40 Locations - Operation Tonga.pdf - Icedrive

See my download links for other location studies.

Regards ...

 

The picture with obscured number; (40) I’m not a Normandy expert but not sure that’s the chalk number? Looks like a permanent fixture to that fuselage rather than literally the number being chalked on the side?

 

It's a chalk number, similar in style to CN 39. They had to paint the D-Day stripes around the number which was painted previously.



Regards ...

 

Thanks for the info, learned that today if nothing else!

 

That was the way they did it at Brize Norton for D-Day. Not all air fields were the same when it came to applying, or in some cases scrawling on chalk numbers.

Regards ...

 

Oi,

The carrier from CN 277?



More info here down the page:

1/35th scale Airborne Carrier

Regards ...

 

Was the carrier abandoned due to damaged steering ...?



Regards ...

 

Definitely, I have previously spoken with Robert's Son who has confirmed his father was in the same glider as Maxted. If you don't mind me doing so, I may send him that audio file of Maxted' s account as I'm sure it would be very much appreciated if he hasn't already heard it!

I believe a note on the back of that photograph refers to the carrier being damaged and abandoned due to steering issues following the crash (not unexpected given the violent landing).

The direction of travel in the photo also suggests to me they were headed back through the village later in the day probably to clear some of the equipment from other gliders as HQ's war diary shows Robert's as "Glider Compo Clearing". My current working hypothesis is they were heading to clear CN 270? which is by a wood in the 12th's landing area, although there are a lot of assumptions I need to lock down before having certainty on this (most importantly determining what the change in plan was). If the photo is known to be taken earlier in the day then that could be interesting as it may then give more clues towards the direction they were coming from when they left the glider.

Regarding timings we know they must have arrived at the RV later than 1600 as only 2 gliders had arrived prior to this.
- 1 undamaged almost immediately (Sjt Whittall's), on which was probably my grandfather as the Bren Gun driver ("only glider that didn't crash").
- and the other at 1300 with a different commanding officer (Probably CN 273).
The next possibility is they got to the RV at 1600 (which would fit with Maxted' s 4 hours although I think that is just coincidence as he probably was separated from them and at the station at this time). If they did get there at 1600 they would have been the 5th group to arrive at the RV and their arrival would have coincided with personnel from 2 other 716 Hamilcar's (CN 267 and possibly CN 269)

For reference the Grid Ref for the RV is just south of HQ in the corner by the wood and minefield (near modern lat long 51.717, 6.564). It is worth noting both of these groups had also made a trip to an aid station to care for there wounded commander and are stated to have arrived at the RV together as a 3, at the 1600 time quoted above.

Finally, I thought it worth mentioning, I was thinking the other day (in the DZ P photographs thread) some of the POW's in photographs of D+1 may also be related to the "sixty odd prisoners" taken by some of CN 277 later that night whilst they were running ammunition to 5 Bde.

Edit's: Some wording, and adding the grid ref.

Thanks
SH

 

Hi,

My reading is these guys drive into the central crossroad near church, leave the carrier and head west up Mehrhooger Strabe. Both shots by Sgt. Christie (AFPU) on the 25th according to IWM (?). Might get a clue to time of day from shadows.

Regards ...

Edit - Think date is actually the 24th

 

I agree, I think they were coming out of Diersfordter Str although it could be Bislicher Str,

Scaling the 2nd image using a grid and doing a quick check on the shadow length I get a ratio of 37s/31o, this gives a time of around 13:20, Interesting! Checking the Shadow angle this also fits this time, with shadows on the 24th, perpendicular to Mehrhooger Strabe, at ~13:20 on the 24 Mar 1945. I will see if I can check this more rigorously when I have a bit more time (maybe this weekend). Much earlier than I thought though! maybe they are on their way direct from the landing / crash site after all!?

Thanks,
SH

 

Captain Peter Cattle



Regards ...

 

As far as I understand it the RASC guys in this pic (Cee was right about them headed west) on MehrhoogerStr) was to establish the route to 5 Para Brigade area was clear and in control. This was in order to report that the route was in friendly hands and vehicles used for supply / ammo runs had a safe route.