Missing Ciné film from 6th Airborne landings

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by glbrierley, May 25, 2016.

  1. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    There was a compilation of scenes alleged to have all been taken on D-Day that was once available for viewing at the University of South Carolina site which we discussed in another thread:

    http://library.sc.edu/blogs/mirc/85/

    Towards the end there were a few pans across the LZ showing men gathered around a glider and another of men pushing bikes through the field. The numbers 27 and 15 can be seen chalked on the front of gliders. I'm not sure if these are official chalk numbers. There is also a 99 painted on a removed tail end nearby. The best I can find of those scenes for the moment comes at the end of this brief Critical Past film. Unfortunately the clips have been a little shortened from the original.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVIzA9qU09I

    Regards ...

    Edit: University of South Carolina
     
  2. glbrierley

    glbrierley Member

    It has taken me a while to reply, I had to postpone my visit to the IWM until this week. I manage to watch 7 reals, labelled; A70 25-2,A70 25-3,A70 27-1,A70 36-2,A70 41-6,A70 47-5,A70 57-6. Plenty of footage of the 6th Airbourn preparing to leave but unfortunately none of them showed the actual Horsa landings on June 6th so still no luck with finding the missing film. I am thinking that it could have been destroyed, as my dad said, on it's way back to the beach-head. As Cee says, it's a great loss that we are missing the spectacular sight of the gliders landing. I am grateful for the clip of the Critical Past film and will look more into this. Also the clip from Brythm, this also needs investigating.
    The IWM was a good experience, in a building a few streets away from the main museum. The whole thing was like stepping back in time and watching the reals on the old fashioned metal editing/viewing desk was great. Everyone helpful, an oasis of history.
     
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  3. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi Louise,

    It sounds like a you had good experience even if at this point you didn't find what you are looking for. I'll check out your IWM numbers on their film site, thanks. I found the source of the Critical Past clips above. They can be viewed at the 6:54 mark of A70 34-3.

    http://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/index/47128

    The actual dates for the various clips in theses compilations can vary quite a bit. I believe the one pan which doesn't show men is another located in the north end of LZ N.

    Regards ...
     
  4. glbrierley

    glbrierley Member

  5. glbrierley

    glbrierley Member

    Thanks Cee

    I can't view the film very well here at dad's as the broadband isn't good enough. I will try when I get back home after the weekend. :)
     
  6. DominicJ

    DominicJ New Member

    Hi Louise, I know this is an old post, but I am the grandson of your father's commanding officer, Major E Clive Jones. I would be delighted to make contact with you and your father. My best wishes
     
  7. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Hi Dominic and Louise,

    I wasn't sure how or where best to ask however, similarly to Dominic's message above I thought I would reach out in case either of you were interested in getting in contact. I am also the relation of a member of 716 Light Composite Company RASC, (my grandfather "Bob" Robert Hayward), and have been researching the my grandfathers and 716's history over the past few years.

    Regarding Cine footage, I unfortunately have no information on the cine footage from D-Day, however, have come across some historic footage from operation Varsity that I believe may from and of one of 716's gliders (and is something I am actively looking into at present).

    If either of you or anyone else who reads this are interested in sharing notes or getting in touch please let me know,

    Best Regards,
    Steve
     
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  8. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi Steve,

    you mention a film - is this a film from one of the official collections such as the Imperial War Museum? Or does "cine footage" refer to private, i.e. unofficial, footage? I'd be interested to learn more about the images in the context of "Varsity".

    Best
    Alex
     
  9. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member


    Hi Alex,

    I'm guessing you have probably seen the footage I had in mind, and can possibly even answer some of my questions / address my thoughts on it below.

    The film I speak of is part of the film at this link: particularly between ~6 min 20 and around 14min (near the end).

    I have not been able to find details on where this footage came from or who filmed it, although I am sure the information must be out there somewhere.

    That said, the visual story telling, cuts etc, presented in the footage (linked above) very closely match the transcript available in "The War Report" book the covers Stanley Maxted, and Richard Dimbleby's Broadcast from when Maxted was dropped in a glider alongside members of 716LCC with Dimbleby in the tow plane. The footage is so similar to the transcript, that I have been wondering if this is possibly due to the footage coming (or in part coming) from a camera and crew sent with Maxted to film the events or capture cine footage to go alongside the original radio broadcast at a later date (i.e. once it was returned to the UK).

    I was intending at some point to create a new thread dedicated to addressing this question and sourcing any information surrounding this broadcast and footage, as my knowledge of both is rather limited, the main intention of the thread (when I get round to it) being to either rule out the similarities as a coincidence (which I believe there is a good chance it is), or provide further evidence that the 2 pieces of media are related.

    if you know the answer to this I would be very grateful if you could let me know, if not I will continue digging into the few more leads I have, possibly emailing the
    memorial to see if they know the source etc.

    I welcome your thoughts on this,

    Best Regards,
    Steve
     
  10. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    For some answers see this thread:

    LZ 'P' Scenes and Photos, Operation Varsity

    Or this PDF based on it:

    LZ 'P' Scenes and Photos, Operation Varsity.pdf - Icedrive

    Regards ...
     
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  11. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi Steve and Cee,
    yes, I know the footage - it is all official footage and various bits and pieces of it were used in many contemporary reports about Varsity. Quite a few images are to be found in both British and American newsreels - there was a "pool" from which the newsreel companies received their footage, the images were created by official camera operators who served in the the AFPU. However, this film also a contains a number of scenes that were not used in other films and - to my knowledge - are not to be found elsewhere. It is professionally edited - but apparently no sound or commentary were added. Maybe ist was never finished and never released... I don't know about that.
    Funny that it should have survived in Australia of all places. Maybe a nod to the Australian pilots involved in Varsity...
    Best
    Alex
     
  12. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    No idea where Maxted's glider came down but it might have been CN 277. From the war diary:

    "Glider No.277 - Hit by Flak - Crash landing and broke up - 1 O.R. wounded & 1 War Correspondent travelling in Glider wounded."

    Most of the March 24th footage in the southern half of LZ 'P' was taken by Lee Howard and many of the photos were by Robert Capa. Neither had a 716th LCC connection and neither were AFPU.

    Regards ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  13. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Thanks Cee and alberk for both of your assistance, that thread and PDF will definitely come in handy (got some reading to do : ) )! also I agree very interesting it did make its way to Australia.
     
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  14. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Listened to a couple of audios found on my computer and Dimbleby mentions their Halifax tug was pulling "No. 277". In another audio Maxted tells how he and Peter Cattle after the crash landing made their way to the Hamminkeln Passenger Station and spent some time there before moving into the village and eventually to Div HQ. Quite interesting. So their Hamilcar would probably have come down in vicinity of the station and no where near LZ 'P'.

    Regards ...
     
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  15. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    If you wish you can download an audio of a programme containing Maxted and Dimbleby recordings (2.5+ mbs) from link below which I'll leave up for a time:

    Programme-Dimbleby, Maxted Op Varsity.mp3 - Icedrive

    Included an aerial of Station area with what could be a Hamilcar nearby, though may be too intact to be CN 277 and the Bert Hardy photo of the return over the Rhine of the war correspondents and PR men.

    Station Area Hamminkeln.jpg BU2549 by Hardy.jpg

    Regards ...
     
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  16. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Hi Cee,

    Fantastic research, funny enough I was also looking at the glider landing positions too, and about to post some more thoughts when your comment above came through! : )

    Having listened to the audio it appears the transcript in the book I referred to (above) is a shortened piece of text based on the audio you linked (fantastic!) the audio adds a lot of additional detail to events as well as some more context! (I had no idea parts were recorded 2 days later although did know some of the equipment was damaged) interesting too how some things were cut or shortened for the written account. It is wonderful that the audio still exists and can be listened to! It is very much appreciated that you provided it.

    The “Hamilcar …?” Glider on the aerial does look distinctly different from the other gliders photographed so presumably is one.

    Another possibility I was thinking is the glider adjacent to the railway that appears in the 1948 plot of glider positions, linked in another thread: T/14656349 Victor Stanley COLES, RASC: 17/03/1945 Op Varsity, Odd casualty - any ideas?

    I have gone through the audio based on the assumption that glider CN 277 is the one close to the railway embankment south of the station, and from what I can see the statements made by Maxted make this a distinct possibility. (Figure 1 below shows the route taken if we assume the southern glider is CN 277. this is of course very much a work in progress and is based on a big assumption over where they landed however, I thought I would share this to see what you think, if this is right the ditch hedge and railway embankment all still exist).

    Figure 1 (Attached) – WIP plan showing possible route of Maxted and Cattle following the glider landing.

    Again thankyou for the audio recording it alone discounts my original hypothesis about the Australian footage as listening to both there is no way they line up timing wise.

    KR,
    Steve
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi Steve,

    You have their Hamilcar landing a considerable distance to the south of the Station. I thought it would have been closer, if not to the north, but who knows? Will try to ferret out a few more clues.

    Regards ...
     
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  18. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    Here's an oblique view showing the Hamilcar near the Station. First impression is that it's in pretty good shape. It is also hard to tell if the nose is swung open - I think not. Remember the carrier on Maxted's glider smashed out the front on their abrupt landing.

    BH -Crop.jpg BH -Crop -Marked.jpg

    Note there is hedge nearby that runs down to the road beside rail line. To quote Maxted:

    "... After getting away from the wreckage and scrambling along on our faces in a ditch beside a hedge we went behind the railway which was on a low embankment until we came to a Station ..."

    He goes on to explain this was Hamminkeln Station which was under the control of the Ox n' Bucks at the time. The 1st RUR would have been to their south and the 12 Devons behind them, holding the village. Earlier he claimed to have been treated by a doctor after landing and taken to a dressing station. No idea where that was and how it fits into his story? Anyway they had to wait some time until the battle abated before they could make their way to the village and then on to Div HQ.

    That may not have been Maxted's glider but I think it is safe to say they did come down somewhere in that area.

    Regards ...
     
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  19. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    The dressing Station run by 195 Airlanding Fd Amb was in Gut Vogelsang, a manor house near the station
    Dingden Mitte Mitte Kopie.jpg

    ABB_109 Kopie.jpg
     
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  20. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    Came here to say that was the nearest dressing station! You beat me to it!
     
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