Merchant Navy Casualty

Bill thanks for the home addresses of the Hopper F crew i only had Bates Home address which i got from his probate index. Where did you get the rest of the crews home details from ? Regarding Hopper D crew i hope that because Hopper F crew is commemorated that the C.W.G.C see sense and give the crew the recognision they deserve.

 

Hello Izzy,

Crew addresses are recorded in copies of the Deaths at Sea Register I have.

As for the CWGC. I can promise you this, I will not let up until a satisfactory conclusion has been reached.

 

Bill the correct address for S. H Bates Hopper F is 242 Higher Road Halewood. and not 242 Halewood Road.

 

Billy

Im with you on that one

Chris

 

Bill the correct address for S. H Bates Hopper F is 242 Higher Road Halewood. and not 242 Halewood Road.

Sorry my mistake, misread the address.

 

As mentioned, I was not prepared to let it go in regard to to those lost from Hopper Barge D in receiving full war grave status. I have once again submitted the names forward and have sent relevant documents to the Commission including death certs of the two bodies recovered. Also sent an official report on the loss, including a letter actually sent to the CWGC at the time.

 

As mentioned, I was not prepared to let it go in regard to to those lost from Hopper Barge D in receiving full war grave status. I have once again submitted the names forward and have sent relevant documents to the Commission including death certs of the two bodies recovered. Also sent an official report on the loss, including a letter actually sent to the CWGC at the time.

Billy, thanks for the time that you are taking on this one, there are quite a few memorials around the town of Widnes, inclusing the main cenotaph, parish memorials, school memorials and two later ones added to commerate the Normandy Veterans, and also the 3 local VC holders, but no where are the civilians commerated.

I plan to progress this, but will await the outcome, as these guys should be added to th cenotaph

P

 

Email just received from the CWGC. At least I have got further forward than last time I applied.

Dear Billy

Jackie has passed onto me your dossier regarding the Merchant Seaman who served on Hopper Barges some of whom are commemorated by the Commission and others who are not.

Generally we accept that there would appear to have been some inconsistencies in those of the Mercantile Marine whom we commemorate. As Jackie advised in previous correspondence, all the names that we record were advised to us by the appropriate service authority after the war. In the case of men of the Mercantile Marine this would have been the Registrar General of Shipping and Seaman.

As a consequence of this, we are presently looking at all our archival documentation which includes correspondence between ourselves and the Registrar General of Shipping and Seaman at the time in an attempt to clarify just why some Merchant Seaman were accorded war grave status and not others. In the course of our research it may be necessary to liaise with other organizations so it may be some time before we can deal with your cases.

Kind regards

Tim Brown
Records Supervisor
Commonwealth War Graves Commission
2 Marlow Road
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7DX
Direct Line: 01628 507231
tim.brown@cwgc.org

 

Received today. Over two years and stiil waiting.

Dear Billy

Thank you for your patience.

I believe that we are nearing the course of our investigation regarding the casualties of Hopper Barge D. As I advised previously, it has been necessary to solicit information from other sources which has delayed our investigation. That being said, I do hope to be able to let you know the result of our investigation on this matter in due course.

Kind regards

Tim Brown
Records Supervisor

Commonwealth War Graves Commission
2 Marlow Road
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7DX
Direct Line: 01628 507231

 

Billy, really appreciate your efforts on this. Hopefully we will see a succesful outcome

Phil

 

Just in from the CWGC. Does not seem to matter what I try to do there is always some other red tape. To be truthful, I'm at a total loss on the reply I have received below.

Dear Mr McGee

We can readily understand your frustration which we share not least because we were not and are not privy to all the facts which enable us to give consideration to any claims in respect of Merchant Seamen being afforded war grave status.

It appears from the research that we have undertaken that the criteria for establishing war grave status was not simply a matter of whether vessels were sailing in home waters, increased war risk etc but also it hinges on the application of the Pensions Mercantile Marine Act of 1939 & 1942 and whether or not a war pension or civil pension was awarded. To this end we have made enquiries of the Pensions Agency concerned and they have informed us that under the Data Protection Act they are unable to disclose this information to third parties, only to relatives on proof of kinship.

In the circumstances, there is no avenue for us to explore since the component parts of the equation required in order for us to make such a decision are not all available.

As I informed you before, it was the Registrar General of Seaman and Shipping who compiled their own rolls of honour and in turn notified the Commission of those who were eligible for war grave status. It is clear from our files that even when the names had been put up on the Tower Hill Memorial, it was acknowledged that mistakes had been made but it was felt at that time that to un-commemorate the seamen concerned would cause understandable upset to the families involved.

Naturally if evidence can be provided of a war pension, as distinct from a civil pension, being paid to the families of Merchant Seamen, then the Commission will give further consideration to these cases. I say further consideration as all these cases were looked into some 90 or 60 years ago.

Yours sincerely

Tim Brown

Records Supervisor
Commonwealth War Graves Commission
2 Marlow Road
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7DX
Direct Line: 01628 507231

 

Unbelievable!!

Regards
Hugh

 

Billy, I have sent an message via Ancestry to a person who I think is a relatiive of Richard Lee, will keep you informed.

Phil

 

Thanks Phil,

Received this from the CWGC

Dear Mr McGee

As you know, Tim Brown has referred the subject of the rules governing the commemoration of Merchant Seamen to me because of the issues that you have raised in connection with the men who died on Hopper Barge D. In your email of 9 August 2011 you also say that the Merchant Navy Association (MNA) is striving for some sort of recognition for all Merchant Navy casualties of WWII, so I will also take this opportunity to deal with this wider issue, in the hope that we can agree a way forward for the future.

The first point to be clear on is the authority under which we work with regard to the commemoration of merchant seamen who died during the Second World War. This stems from a resolution made by the Imperial War Graves Commission (now Commonwealth War Graves Commission) (IWGC/CWGC) at its 244th meeting on 23 September 1942. I attach a copy of the resolution and the paper that led to it. From this you will see that there was a connection made between the commemoration of merchant seamen and the award of a pension under the Pensions (Mercantile Marine) Act 1942.

Although we no longer have all the paperwork it is apparent that the mechanism for establishing the names of the merchant seamen that the IWGC should commemorate involved a notification from the Ministry of Pensions to the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries and to the Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen (for the Roll of Honour). The IWGC therefore did not decide which seamen to commemorate - the decision was made by the Ministry declaring that the death was due to war injury (or one of the other causes stipulated in the act), and therefore, presumably, the dependents were in receipt of a pension.

For Merchant Seamen the award of a pension under the Mercantile Marine Compensation Scheme is therefore evidence that the death was due to war injury and therefore commemoration by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) as a war casualty can proceed. In the case of the men who died on Hopper Barge D you have not provided this evidence and we do not, at present, have an established mechanism for extracting such information from the Ministry of Defence (which is now responsible for the war pension records) because of their Data Protection concerns. The quickest way to resolve the matter may be for you to mobilise one of the family members to write to the Ministry of Defence (Service Personnel and Veterans Agency) to get hold of the information. As you have already done a great deal of work to link the names of those who died on Hopper Barge D, I am prepared exceptionally to accept that the award of a pension for one of the men will be sufficient evidence to allow commemoration of all of them as war casualties. In the meantime we will continue to seek a formal agreement with the Ministry of Defence to get information about the award of war pensions to the dependents of merchant seamen.

Head Office, Information Services Department
Bernard McGee, Director of Information Services