Markings and Insignia for Armour in the BEF

Discussion in '1940' started by LondonNik, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    Andrew, Thank you for the other view, the one I posted was from Ground Power, a Japanese book magazine.

    The light tanks would be in Battalion HQ and carry a solid diamond tactical sign.

    Here is a 4th Battalion Royal Tanks Mk VIB, the diamonds would be blue,

    [​IMG]

    The Battalion colors are what the instruction book indicates for HQ, 4th Battalion was blue. 7th Battalion had red and green as Battalion colors as indicated here on the A12 GREYNAM Battalion HQ Infantry Tank Mk II. Diamond red over green.

    [​IMG]

    Now those opposite arrows are odd but they could be German as the turret may suffer burn damage and the arrows are rather clean.
     
  2. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Andrew, Thank you for the other view, the one I posted was from Ground Power, a Japanese book magazine.

    The light tanks would be in Battalion HQ and carry a solid diamond tactical sign.

    Here is a 4th Battalion Royal Tanks Mk VIB, the diamonds would be blue,



    Bob

    That Mk VI with the Germans standing on it certainly has plenty of markings. I can see that the diamond on the rear is solid and that it can be expected to be blue as you indicate. What is your view about the diamond on the left side of the turret? It could almost be white.

    Andrew
     
  3. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    Two more photos 1st with 12B? not Dunkirk might be Calais?. 2nd photo with number 3 and a few hits. photos from my collection.
    british tank dunkirk b.jpg shot up tank dunkirk.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  4. Roddy1011

    Roddy1011 Senior Member

    Nice pics - first one has AoS of '9' making it 3 RTR in Calais...

    Roddy
     
  5. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    Andrew, With black & white photos the same color could appear a different shade depending on a number of factors. The diamonds would be all the same color and the rear view shows the German recovery mark 1541 which is probably white.
     
  6. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    A13 is a popular tourist photo, they love to crash into buildings!

    Here is the location in Calais today. You see they repaired the hole!

    [​IMG]
     
  7. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  8. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    Nick, The original is a tiny eBay scanned that I enlarged with photoshop so the center of the diamond may be an illusion. I meant to bid on the photo but I forgot and it ended. The instruction for pennants indicates the Battalion number in black but something certainly changed with Coy insignia on the Infantry tanks that is not documented in the MTP. I would love to find anything documented on the tactical signs with stripes but there is penants with stripes in the MTP.

    Interesting take on these BEF toys:
    If you scroll down, GEENOCK has red stripes for the Coy insignia. You wonder if they know something or just guessing? In my opinion the stripes were black and every tank with them the shade appears very dark where a red would in at least one photo show lighter shades.

    Catalogue - British
     
  9. Roddy1011

    Roddy1011 Senior Member

    Ref the Lt Tk VIB...if the VRN is HMC 834 (big if) then this is T-4481 of 5 RTR...but the Southon papers fm the BTM note that this veh was loaded onto a train for Cherbourg...

    Roddy
     
  10. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    Roddy,

    5th RTR would not carry the white BEF recognition square and unlikely to have sold HQ markings.
     
  11. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Nick, The original is a tiny eBay scanned that I enlarged with photoshop so the center of the diamond may be an illusion. I meant to bid on the photo but I forgot and it ended. The instruction for pennants indicates the Battalion number in black but something certainly changed with Coy insignia on the Infantry tanks that is not documented in the MTP. I would love to find anything documented on the tactical signs with stripes but there is penants with stripes in the MTP.

    Interesting take on these BEF toys:
    If you scroll down, GEENOCK has red stripes for the Coy insignia. You wonder if they know something or just guessing? In my opinion the stripes were black and every tank with them the shade appears very dark where a red would in at least one photo show lighter shades.

    Catalogue - British

    Bob

    If they can't get the proportions, wheels and red cross markings right on a K2 Ambulance I would be wary about their interpretation of those markings.

    Andrew
     
  12. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

    Delete
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I've just read in their diary that their 'serial numbers of vehicle plates' changed from No.18 to No.2 on 10th Feb 1940.
     
  14. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    I've just read in their diary that their 'serial numbers of vehicle plates' changed from No.18 to No.2 on 10th Feb 1940.

    Andy

    AoS numbers don't often get a mention in diaries. Do you know what colour background it was and is it possible to post the page?

    Andrew
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  16. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Andy

    Thanks for the quick response. LondonNik posted a list of markings for 50th Northumberland Division for 1939 in which it was specified that the colour for a Divisional Cavalry Unit or M/C battalion was black and it shows 4th Northumberland Fusiliers as M/C battalion with the number 18.

    Presumably this same numbering system applied to 1st Lothians and Border Yeomanry in 48th Division until 10th Feb 1940.

    Andrew
     
  17. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    This photo was on ebay.
    tank british 1940.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  18. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    Press photo taken in the UK. Nice Austin staff car on the left.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  20. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    Nick,

    The 1st AD tanks never did carry the white BEF AFV recognition square most likely as they were late in arriving. I have a few other photos of Mk VIC's from this unit. There may be a side turret view of this one as well.

    -Bob
     

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