Markings and Insignia for Armour in the BEF

Discussion in '1940' started by LondonNik, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Infantry tank Mk I of 4th RTR (HMH 796) I think?
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    A13 Cruiser of 5th RTR
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    Light tank Mk VIB of 13/18 Hussars QMO
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    Scout carrier of 13/18 Hussars QMO
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    Light tank Mk VIB of 15/19 Hussars
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    Scout carriers of 15/19 Hussars
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    Armoured Car, Reconnaissance Morris CS9 of 12th Lancers named COWES
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  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    A wonderful image of the VIB with the haystacks. Can a tank be pastoral ? It looks so inoffensive there. I'd be more scared of the horse !
     
  3. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    If you look closely you will see it is in fact a horse drawn tank.

    Andrew
     
  4. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    More English tanks from eBay:

    Carbo:

    [​IMG]

    Dahlia:

    [​IMG]

    Jan
     
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I think that the first Matilda will be 'Garbo' (as in Greta).
     
  6. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    I think that the first Matilda will be 'Garbo' (as in Greta).

    I agree with Garbo.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44617&stc=1&d=1296489000

    A while ago Mike Grieve posted a list of 4 RTR Matilda Is on Missing Lynx and I have added a couple more as follows:

    Demon - HMH794
    Deoch
    Dennis
    Derwent - HMH793 (T3438)
    Destroyer – HMH807
    Devil - HMH799
    Dolphin - HMH826
    Dowager
    Dragon
    Drastic
    Dreadnought – HMH796


    Dahlia was not on it. I am sure someone has a more current list.


    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  7. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    The unit sign 28 was used by 5 DG as demonstrated by this photo of "Batchelor Prince" which still has the sign of 4 Division displayed.
    [​IMG]

    So we now have...
    HQ: Hermes, Hengist, Horsa
    A Sgn: Alpine Hut
    B Sqn: Batchelor Prince
    C Sqn: Commander, Columbo


    Does anybody know the meaning of this "umbrella handle" symbol on these tanks? I've seen this marking on many pictures, here's another one:

    [​IMG]

    Jan
     
  8. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  9. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  10. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    A while ago Mike Grieve posted a list of 4 RTR Matilda Is on Missing Lynx and I have added a couple more as follows:

    Demon - HMH794
    Deoch
    Dennis
    Derwent - HMH793 (T3438)
    Destroyer – HMH807
    Devil - HMH799
    Dolphin - HMH826
    Dowager
    Dragon
    Drastic
    Dreadnought – HMH796


    Dahlia

    Andrew

    Thanks for posting that list Andrew, I concur with most of the above from photographic evidence, however....

    Do you know the source for the VRN for DREADNOUGHT? I have two different VRNs (?), none of which are from photos.
    Do you know the source for the VRN for DEVIL? DEVIL is in a 1938 photo from the Tank Museum as HMH 805....
    Or the source for DRAGON?

    Anecdotal evidence (from veterans) points to the following additional names - but I have yet to see a photo of them....

    Dingo from B Hastings
    Dinosaur ditto
    Daisy ditto
    Durham from L Greene
    Dauntless from W Armitt (from 'The Tank')

    Best,

    Nick
    HMH 805 Devil as discussed, at the 1938 display
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    [​IMG]
     
  11. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    A few more pictures of 4th RTR Matilda I's

    1.
    [​IMG]

    2. Dreadnought & Dolphin HMH826
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    3. HMH789 ?
    [​IMG]

    4.
    [​IMG]

    5.
    [​IMG]

    6. Deoch HMH???
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    7. HMH796 ?
    [​IMG]

    8. HMH794
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    9.
    [​IMG]

    10. HMH821
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  12. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Nick

    I don't have pictures of any of the three you mention. Dragon came from an illustration in the Histoire & Collections Tank book, which drew its illustrations from Militaria magazine and the VRN for Dreadnought from an illustration in Tank Power Vol XLII. I have scans of the illustrations but have neither book with me so cannot look up any reference to source. Devil came from Mike Grieve's list. I will keep my eyes open for further information.

    Andrew
     
  13. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    I agree with Garbo.

    A while ago Mike Grieve posted a list of 4 RTR Matilda Is on Missing Lynx and I have added a couple more as follows:

    Demon - HMH794
    Deoch
    Dennis
    Derwent - HMH793 (T3438)
    Destroyer – HMH807
    Devil - HMH799
    Dolphin - HMH826
    Dowager
    Dragon
    Drastic
    Dreadnought – HMH796


    Dahlia was not on it. I am sure someone has a more current list.


    Andrew

    Nick

    I have also found a list of names and numbers used on a decal sheet by Accurate Armour which links the following together:

    DERWENT HMH793 T3438
    DEMON HMH794 T3439
    DEVIL HMH805 T3450
    DREADNOUGHT HMH821 T3466
    DOLPIN HMH826 T3471

    Clearly the decal sheet researcher found different evidence for Dreadnought's VRN than Tank Power.

    Andrew
     
  14. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  15. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  16. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Hi Bodston - thanks for posting the photos of Mk I 'I' tanks with 4RTR. Photo 4 is an RMY series tank and Photo 5 is an HMH series (note the position of the National Recognition square on the hull side and the headlamps).

    Nick

    Is the recognition square a reliable indicator of VRM prefixes? Picture 3 is an HMH tank with the 'high' position white square. Or have I missed something :unsure:

    Edit: That is exactly what you said. I am an idiot. High square = HMH.
     
  17. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  18. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Hi Bodston - you are not an idiot because it isn't that easy! Sometimes the National Square on the hull side can indicate that the tank is either HMH or RMY, the only real way to tel is from the configuration of the tank. There were 3 versions:

    all of the type 1 (HMH series) had headlamps set on brackets high on the hull and behind the driver's visor. They had the jack blocks on the hull rear and a big tow-rope coiled up on the right side. DREADNOUGHT is a Type 1.

    Interim types (the first few of the RMY series) had headlamps set lower and infront of the driver's visor, they have jack blocks on the rear hull and different stowage, mostly with no front stowage bins (but not always). Photo 6 DEOCH is an interim type.

    Type 2 (the rest of the RMY series) were basically the same as the interim types but almost always had large high stowage bins (but there are exceptions).

    Nick

    Again, that is interesting. I wonder if those 3 distinct variations match the 3 manufacturing contracts? All built by Vickers on the Tyne.

    1 X Prototype A11E1 - T1724
    60 X Matilda 1 - T3433-T3492
    60 X Matilda 1 - T5551-T5610
    19 X Matilda 1 - T8101-T8119

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  19. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
    Bodston likes this.
  20. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    Grasshopper:

    [​IMG]

    Jan
     

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