Margaret Thatcher statue unveiled in the Falklands

Discussion in 'Postwar' started by CL1, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drayton
    I am quite sure that the ROYAL NAVY did NOT set out to shell a house in the Falklands with the intent to kill three women going about their

    business - this was war and civilians tend to get in the way….

    TTH - considering your view of the Falklands failure of 22 Royal Marines in the face of an invasion force in our recent thread on American Leadership

    - can I take it that you might be recognized as being " cum sit a duo bus signis' or merely exercising your poetic licence…

    Cheers
     
  2. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Tom:

    Please do not misunderstand me. Despite criticisms over details I have nothing but respect for the British Army generally and the Royal Marines in particular. The WW2 veteran I knew best was a Marine from 41 RM Commando. I understand that 22 RM was simply faced by vastly superior enemy force and I know that it fought to the last until overwhelmed, There is no disgrace in that, quite the contrary. I had a teacher in college [university] who favored the Argentines, and I disagreed with him completely and supported the British cause throughout. I don't know enough about British domestic politics and as a foreigner I am not qualified to comment thereon, but where the Falklands were concerned I think Mrs.Thatcher was absolutely right.
     
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    TTH

    just pulling your leg a little as I do appreciate having you on the forum as your points of view are respected and always good for an argument- as my

    Scottish humour tends to get in the way at times- Americans are not looked upon as "foreigners " but rather rebellious colonists - I usually have

    breakfast most Sundays with an American couple which is always good for a few laughs- and the odd argument…

    Cheers
     
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  4. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The Falklands invasion by the Argies followed when the then government took their eye off the ball....the withdrawal of HMS Endurance leaving little British military representation was interpreted by Galleria that the British would not intervene if the Argentine reclaimed the Falklands...if I recollect correctly,the unprepared state of the Falklands defence resulted in Nott resigning.

    Of course Hitler made the same mistake that Britain would not intervene when Poland was invaded, despite the fact that Britain was helpless to effect any relief to a country,the far end of Europe.

    One might say, to a lesser extent, we did not consider deeply, the quality of the decision to axe the Nimrod fleet since as predicted by those who had a better understanding of defence matters, that we would have a deficiency in the maritime role. last week we had to depend on alliance aircraft to monitor Russian submarines patrolling off Scottish waters
     
  5. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

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    Precisely, TTH... My concern is that we in the UK are no longer strong, and as Steve and Harry infer, no longer independently capable of conventionally defending ourselves. The MoD (Ministry of Defence) is run by accountants who endeavour to balance the slim budget, but what price a failure of arms? The next time, should it come, there will be no 'miracle of Dunkirk'.

    It appears that our politicians have learned nothing from history and we do not presently have another Winston or Maggie.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
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  6. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Steve,

    Your last sentence says it all.

    If the residents of the Falklands want a Memorial of Margaret Thatcher, then who are we to argue.

    I personally think that the Memorial Looks good.

    Regards
    Tom
     
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  7. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

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    I recall Maggie sacked Lord Carrington and replaced him with Sir Francis Pym, who was considered a 'Tory Wet' and not one of her supporters; quite the opposite. I further recall, he did a good job and then she replaced him after the 1983 General Election - that's what constitutes a 'thanks' in politics.

    Carrington served in the Grenadier Guards and Pym in the 9th Lancers in WWII; both won MCs. I recall reading somewhere that Carrington was the tank commander who was portrayed in 'A Bridge Too Far' refusing an US Airborne officer's prompting to crack on to Arnhem. Orders are orders, etc...

    Sir John Nott, the then Minister of Defence, had served with the Gurkha Rifles during the Malayan Emergency. He always appeared to be out of his depth at that time of the Falklands conflict to me, but I maybe being unfair.

    You would have thought that, given their background, Carrington and Nott would have been more bullish/assertive/aggressive...

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  8. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Well said. The response of the Argentine ambassador is completely disingenuous. Having been the aggressor, with little justification and highly questionable motives, they are hardly in a position to criticize what is a very modest memorial.
     
  9. brithm

    brithm Senior Member

  10. Drusus Nero

    Drusus Nero Banned

    Margerat should have stuck to Chemistry. But she was only average at that, despite her Oxford roots.

    Domestically, Margerat set back the cause of women politicians back into pre-suffragette. It will be a long time before Britain is collectively stupid enough to vote in another Woman P.M..

    With her diplomacy one step behind and so utterly uncompromising as to be useless, she practically willed Galtieri into continuance of his ill starred operation, and all for the benefit of focussing the attention of the long suffering British press and public on something else other than the failing domestic economy.

    I believe Mrs. Thatcher had morphed into a man after the birth of her children. She was certainly the only real man in British politics for a long time, but as Kenny Everet put it, in a sketch he did dressed as Gary Numan singing about Margeret,...."But you will vote for her again, cos' who the hell wants Tony Benn?"
     
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  11. Drusus Nero

    Drusus Nero Banned

    Thatcher and Ronnie Reagan should have divorced their partners and married.

    Together, they could have ruled the world as husband and wife, dancing cheek to cheek, before Ronnie gives Maggie a big dip, and pulling her up, holds her close to whisper in her ear....."Maggie darling! What are we going to do about....Cruise Missiles?"
     
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  12. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Mrs. Thatcher willed Galtieri into attacking? How, with brain waves? X-rays, autosuggestion, voodoo? Do you really mean to say that the person who sent the relief force to the Falklands is as culpable as the foreign dictator who invaded them? I have heard that the victory was a boon to her politically, but do really think that possibility was uppermost in her mind? Do you have any evidence for these assertions?

    "Utterly uncompromising as to be useless." Handing your citizens over to foreign military rule trussed up like Christmas turkeys is the kind of compromise dictators want. Mrs. Thatcher would have been remiss in her duty if she had not acted as she did, as would any other prime minister of either party or any US president in a similar case.

    And why are you dragging the woman's gender into the discussion? Why do you say she "morphed into a man," because she went into politics and was successful therein? I understand that Mrs. Thatcher is very unpopular in some quarters because of her domestic policies. I can't comment on those, but irrelevancies and non sequiturs like the above are no help.
     
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  13. Drusus Nero

    Drusus Nero Banned

    NOOO...typo

    Her diplomatic style and reliance on "shuttle" diplomacy by Americans practically convinced Galteieri that she did not care, and that intervention would be zero.

    She did nothing practical to get them to pull back, just let the US do all the talking. No direct negotiations. She didnt want them. It suited her just fine to have Argentina's worst troops sitting in the Falklands, while their best units sat on the Chilean border.
     
  14. Drusus Nero

    Drusus Nero Banned

    It was British parliment that described her as "The only man in British politics."....Not my line of quotation.

    And why not bring gender issues into the disscussion? Margeret wasn't afraid to .
     
  15. Drusus Nero

    Drusus Nero Banned

    Maggie was the one favouring big budget cuts for the defence forces. If the Argentine invasion had been delayed by only a few months, both of the RN's aircraft carriers would have been history.

    Maggie cut defese spending to the BONE, then leaned on the tri services to pull a rabbit out of a hat, costing far too many Brit and Argentine lives.

    Direct diplomacy might have produced a different outcome. The Falklands were not worth hanging on to, as Maggie well knew. I dont even think it was worth it for the oil. Its a poor field at best, and hardly in a logistically convenient place, like the North Sea platforms.

    In all, Maggie fought that war to keep her own party in power.

    It would have been cheaper to move every one of those Falkland islanders to some other windswept group, like the Shetlands, or the Orkneys. But no, Maggie had to have a war to galvanise the public voter behind the conservative party, by Jingo!
     
  16. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    So, the fact that British people lived there who didn't want to move means nothing?

    I was under the impression that Argentina was the aggressor in the conflict. Evidently I was misinformed.
     
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  17. Drusus Nero

    Drusus Nero Banned

    Dont be needlessly sarcastic.

    Argentina WERE the agressors.

    And that suited Maggie down to her bloomers. She said nothing to alexander Haig about negotiated settlement. She simply played for time, doing nothing to bring a peace process about. War suited both countries, and for the same reason, that is to divert voter attention from the mess at home.

    Argentina made two errors. The first was to assume that Britain would do nothing in response, just let the islands go. The second was to finance the war with money loaned to them by America and France. These loans were meant to rebuild the Argentine economy, or make a start in any case. They went on a spending spree instead, beefing up their military hardware and stocks of ammunition.

    They sent conscripts to the Falklands for just this reason, that military intervention was felt to be so unlikely as to be laughable. Their professional units went to their border regions, for it was further felt that Argentina's neighbours would be taking advantage of their deployment. The Junta felt they were being very clever by placing their best trained and equipped units where they considered action was the most likely.

    In the end, the most professional units that the Brit Task force encountered were the Argentine Air Force, and even then, 70% of their munitions failed to explode from incorrect fusing. A friend of mine called it "A very "Si, Senior" effort....great pilots, but very poor ground crews and service personnel."
     
  18. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    One has to ask if she never made Prime Minister where would we be today.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Drusus Nero

    Drusus Nero Banned

    I see I've upset the local chapter of the Margerat Thatcher Appreciation Society.

    I notice that in the entire British Isles, the Falklands is the only place where there has been a statue of this awesome example of a politician who left her country in a mess.

    The lack of public adoration among British folk says it all. She was a regular subject of jokes by many British comedians, including the late Great Rik Mayal, who used the words "Thatcher" and "Fascist" as if they had always gone together.

    Britain will never make that same mistake again. So she was of some use.
     
  20. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    You didn't really look, did you.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6384029.stm
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2383318/MPs-banned-worshiping-feet-idols-like-Thatcher-Churchill-statues-rubbed-away.html

    .
    Trying to have it both ways Chris?

    Thatcher was and still is considered a divisive figure, so not universally unappreciated.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/17/margaret-thatcher-funeral-crowds


    Even Brown and Bliar managed to find it politically convenient to express their respect... the latter in contrast attracts criticism, etc right across the political spectrum http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/starsandstories/10667564/People-diary-Stony-silence-over-Tony-Blair-statue.html


    Rik Mayall - through the character of Rick - parodied student activism and lampooned Thatcherism in equal measure.

    .
    Predicting the future, of an entire country, (where you don't live) : jolly good.
     
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