Hi all - I am helping a WW2 veteran who served in a field artillery regiment as part of 19 Infantry Division (Indian) and if I could get a hold of their divisional history "Dagger Division" then there might be some info in that (for both of us). In the meantime, I have mainly relied on the David Hughes book "The Indian Army in the Far East 1944-45" for most of my info - with another couple of books to get a clearer picture as possible of the battle for Mandalay and Fort Dufferin. Regarding the black berets, I always think of tankies and that headwear. I have a copy of the Time-Life China-Burma-India book and turning to page 167 shows a parade and the only berets I can see are on a couple of blokes in front of the Lee tank in the background. I would say the photo on page 165 shows two infantry soldiers standing (wearing slouch hats) and four tankies sitting. If they (including your dad) are tankies I would say they are members of C Squadron, 150th Regiment, RAC (254th Indian Tank Brigade) - that SQN was attached to the 19th Division for the Mandalay battle. From another thread "according to Osprey 150th Regiment RAC (ex 10th York and Lancaster Regiment) in Burma wore their regimental badge on black beret" At King's College, London - "typescript 150 Regiment RAC [Royal Armoured Corps] (Y&L) [York and Lancaster]. Ops report for the period 16 Jan 1945 to 25 Feb 1945', by Maj Norman Leslock Learmouth Palmer, on operations in Burma, 1945" - sounds interesting Dave, thanks for the input but as much as I appreciate it My Dad was not with the tankies. And going back to the picture as I said sten gun, bren gun and short lee enfield no5, as well as the radio set im sure is in front of the soldier with a cap badge and............. added to that is the fact that Dad said they operated as a spearhead unit all add up to a small infantry section of sorts I would be greatly intrested in your veteran from the 19th Indian div opinion on the pic as well as any info in the history if you can find it many thanks for the help and hope to hear more! all the best, Jason.
Just find this in Osprey book about Lee tanks in British Army: Well I don't know how this can help but just to add more information about battle ... for every case.
C Sqn 3rd Carabiniers were also around when Fort Dufferin fell. In fact, their HQ Tp escorted 5 Bde's commander to raise the Union Jack over the Fort. The rest of the Regiment were not far away. As RAC, they would also have worn black berets and, more importantly, wouldn't have been 'Tankies'; another possibility to consider.
Very intresting cheers Sol, Idler, between us all I think we are getting a better idea of who when and where!
Jason - are you sure you can't post your dad's name on the thread? I am reading unit histories for every unit that was with the 19th division that I can lay my hands on and all sorts of tidbits show up about personnel from the featured unit and attached troops. I wasn't aware that the Carabiniers made it to Mandalay as well, but besides them and the 150th RAC I think a part of the 7th Light Cavalry were attached for the battle. As noted not every member of an armoured unit is a tankie per se - they have supporting troops that might have acted as protecting infantry and also worn the black beret. Stilleto Force (part of Dagger Division) was formed as a mobile column to rush Mandalay. It comprised the 1st Battalion of the 15th Punjab Regiment and some Stuart and Lee tanks of the 7th Light Cavalry and the 150th AR. It also had some anti-tank and field artillery plus some Sikh machine-gun troops and engineers. Mandalay / Fort Dufferin was pretty much an all 19th division affair and the division only contained a few British infantry units (one in each brigade). In 62 brigade was the 2nd Battalion of the Welch regiment, in 64 brigade was the 2nd Battalion of the Worcestershire regiment and in 98 brigade was the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Berkshire regiment. The best place for info on the Worcestershire involvement is on the website mentioned earlier in the thread (the only book I found for them is useless, trying to cover all battalions of the regiment for all of WW2 in a few pages). I haven’t found anything of value to read about the Royal Berkshire regiment or the involvement of the Welch regiment. (although I will now chase up the books by John Hill on the Berks) The only other British units were the 115th (North Midland) Field Regiment RA and the 33rd anti-tank Regiment RA. The bloke I’m helping was an officer with the 4th Field Regiment IA. Oddly enough, I didn’t even think of showing him the time-life book – it has a couple of good colour piccies of the aftermath of the Mandalay operation. His unit was moved across to 5 division around the middle of 1945 and ended up in Java for the post-war fighting there. The Regiment went to Pakistan after partition and histories of the unit are non-existent. I found mentions of his unit on the Worcestershire website which gave him joy to know their efforts were recorded. cheers Dave
Dave, Dads name is George Henry Parr, and one of his mates in the picture was Called Chadwick and he was killed at the end of the war escaping from Military prison. Dad also spoke of a Captain Eve not sure about the spelling on that just wrote it as it sounds hope this helps,all the best mate, Jason
Was your father named for his father? I notice that a Private George Henry Parr served in WW1 with the Devonshire Regiment s/no 9789 (and another one in the Leicestershire Regiment s/no 7414) The reason I ask is that during WW2 the 1st Battalion Devonshire Regiment was in Burma as part of the British 36th Division - "On the right flank of the command, the British 36th Infantry Division made contact with the Indian 19th Infantry Division near Indaw on 10 December 1944, and Fourteenth Army and NCAC now had a continuous front. / From 1 April, NCAC's operations stopped, and its units returned to China. The British 36th Division moved to Mandalay, which had been captured in March, and was subsequently withdrawn to India. " I had a copy of their unit history for WW2 recently (mainly because I mixed up Dorsetshire and Devonshire and requested the wrong book) - the Devonshire book is something like "Straight on for Tokyo" - I might see if I can get hold of it again. The Devons appear to have worn a dark (rifle) green beret - I don't know if this was the case in Burma though. Just found info on a Captain Eric George EVE (296700) of the Devon Regiment
Was your father named for his father? I notice that a Private George Henry Parr served in WW1 with the Devonshire Regiment s/no 9789 (and another one in the Leicestershire Regiment s/no 7414) Dave, you have been busy! No Dads, Dad was Bert Parr and he served at Gallipoli pulling the guns with the RASC.My Dads brother was Albert and either he or my Uncle Frank also served in Burma with the other having seen action with the RA at Cassino, so maybe he was named after my Grandad. these you mean.Private George Henry Parr 7414 1ST Battalion Leicestershire Regiment died Tuesday 29 June 1915, Private George Henry Parr 9789 1st Battalion Devonshire Regiment died Thursday 24 December 1914. And to deviate even further off thread John Parr Private L/14196 4TH Battalion Middlesex Regiment died Friday 21 August 1914 first soldier killed in the war and my Brothers name! now we are completly off topic I will get back to your earlier post and the mention of the black berets worn by supporting troops really makes sense and would seem the way to go along with if possible any info your Veteran might be able to offer cheers, Jason.
The reason I ask is that during WW2 the 1st Battalion Devonshire Regiment was in Burma as part of the British 36th Division Dave 1st Devonshire Regiment was part of 20th Indian Division and it was transferred to 36th British Division after the fall of Mandalay. You can also exclude 2nd Welch Regiment because in the time of battle for Mandalay Hill they were in Maymyo.
The problem im having is remembering things my Dad told me as he died 6 years ago and I am having to rack my brains to recall the things he told me in the case of the above mentioned Captain Eve I cant be sure if Dad was with him prior to Mandalay or after.......... because after Dad was at Changi at.............. or after its Liberation would that make sense? and he was for a time in Singapore with SEAC after the war ended coming home in 46 also just to chuck in the mix my Mum said Dad had spoke of Amritzar which I know is where the Golden Temple is in India.
BUMP! BUMP! just wanna bump this as it was going well, hope to get any input from those who did not catch it in the week, and just to add this picture has also appeared in an issue of Military Illustrated, as part of an article by Mark Leigh, and I did contact them but they were next to useless in providing any help! And I recently picked up a copy of the book Britain at war in colour, yep you guessed its in there to! cheers for the help so far and Drew thanks for the ideas.Jason
caption from the IWM database: "Admiral Lord Louis Mountbatten, Supreme Allied Commander South East Asia, sits astride a captured Japanese 75mm gun while addressing men of the Royal Armoured Corps in Mandalay, 21 March 1945" (there seems to be a whole lot of dark coloured berets in the crowd - don't suppose you recognise any of the men wearing them?) I wonder if we can find out what unit he was addressing??
Going back to the original photo and questions, is there anything else you have of your dad from that time, any other photos of him in uniform or his paybook or somesuch?? All we really know is that he was in the British army and that a photo shows him on Mandalay Hill (erroneously named Pagoda Hill in the book - I suppose it was a hill covered in Pagodas) around the time of the battle for Mandalay / Fort Dufferin. (the battle of Pagoda Hill was technically 12 months prior and led to the award of a VC to a Staffordshire officer) Do you know where your dad was born, or even where he was living when he enlisted. If he was still in the same town, living in the family home, then he might have enlisted with the local regiment. I tried searching the CWGC for any soldier with a surname of Chadwick that died late 1945 or into 1946 that might have been from a military prison with no real joy. Maybe if you look you might remember the bloke’s first name. Do you know if he was in prison back in England or still in the area (Burma / Singapore / India etc) when he died? The old guy I am helping is a WW2 veteran who served in the 4th Field Regiment IA as part of 19th Indian Infantry Division and later the 5th Indian Infantry Division. (He originally served in Italy with the NZ artillery and took a British army commission and ended up in Burma) Many British units were moved out of their parent Indian Infantry Divisions mid-1945 and they were replaced by Indian units. Around this time some units were taken out of the battle line and given new equipment and training for the anticipated landings in Malaya / Singapore. The reason for the British units being withdrawn was that with the end of the war in Europe the discharge of long-serving soldiers had commenced and this affected men serving in the war with Japan too. Basically, we don’t know your dad’s service number or what unit he was with. I assume you can’t request a copy of his service docs without that info. I would have thought using his surname and date of birth would have been enough to get his records (having received the service docs for Richard, the veteran I am helping, I can say that they aren’t as enlightening as you would like to think, they seem to be full of useless information and bugger-all that lets you know where he was, when, and why). Richard ended up in Singapore at the end of the war as his unit was no longer required for the anticipated landings in Malaya. His new division was sent to the NEI following the outbreak of hostilities there. Richard finally made it back to NZ at the beginning of 1947. More info to follow.....
Dave All I have is the picture and the information I have posted so far and Dad was born in Roegate, W.Sussex. Dads mate Chadwick was I think in prison in Singapore maybe temporarily Changi after liberation I have also looked but cant find a Chadwick to link to the info I have posted.Dad ended the war in Singapore with SEAC.I cant make out anything much via the pic you posted but will keep trying and also I will try to rack my Mum and Stepmums brains to see if they can tell me any more of Dad during the war many thanks for all your efforts thus far.Jason
To get better detail on the photograph it would be better viewed in it's original location at the IWM photo database. Until proved otherwise, I'm sticking with my armoured corps theory, there is a picture of men of the Berkshires on Mandalay Hill the day after the battle and none of them are wearing berets. It could have been a habit of one of the other units though. I would suggest trying to get your hands on a copy of the Bryan Perrett book "Tank Tracks to Rangoon" - it might have detail on what sort of infantry type units were a part of various armoured units involved at Mandalay. I am heading overseas in a week or so, and I am running out of time to order books in through my library service. Copies of this title are held interstate and if I remember I might read the book myself when I get back.
Dave, I will try too get my hands on the book, I looked though the IWM datebase in relation to Mandalay/Burma and while there are some very intresting pics nothing there helped, from what I can establish 4/4TH Prince Of Wales Own Gurkha Rifles and the 1/4th were at Mandalay hill along with at some stage during or after 2nd Royal Berkshires, 8/12th Frontier Force, 150th RAC 2 Sqdns, 1/15th Punjab Regiment. Looked at these sites Burmastar.org - burma association Resources and Information.This website is for sale! 2nd Battalion Royal Berkshire Regiment Battle of Mandalay and I was also thinking of contacting the guy who archived the pic for the other book I have Dads pic in, which is 'Britain at war in colour' I found a tel and email for him so will give it a try
Tank Tracks to Rangoon: better to ask what armoured subunits were a part of the infantry formations as one Armd Bde in the Corps gets shared out as a Sqn per Inf Div; and that does seem to be the way it was done most of the time. 19 Div's Stilettocol was formed on C Sqn 7 Lt Cav (Stuarts) with 1 Tp C Sqn 150 RAC (Lees) under command plus supporting arms; C Sqn 150 RAC being 19 Div's attached medium armour. TTTR does state that the Lee sqn was better suited to street fighting in Mandalay than the Stuarts. My concern is that the battle to clear Manadalay was a drawn out affair and hundreds of units would have passed through it at some point. Do we have any idea of the date the photo was taken?
Hi Idler, I was assuming the picture was taken in March 1945, but I suppose it could of been later after the battle and Dad could of been passing through, the pic does show my Dad and his mates in a relaxed state although Dad does have his rifle to hand I am working on trying to trace the origin of the pic will post if I have any joy.Jason
... from what I can establish 4/4TH Prince Of Wales Own Gurkha Rifles and the 1/4th were at Mandalay hill along with at some stage during or after 2nd Royal Berkshires, 8/12th Frontier Force, 150th RAC 2 Sqdns, 1/15th Punjab Regiment On what 1/4th did you mean? 1/4th Gurkhas wasn't there not even 1/4th Bombay Grenadiers. 3/4th Bombay Grenadiers supported 19th Indian Division. If those berets on your picture are really black (colours on picture are quite bad so I can't be 100% sure) then they can only be part of some RAC units. So you than have two possibility: 150th RAC or 7th Cavalry. He didn't have to be in tank, every regiment also had support elements like recce troop, signal troop and etc. Was your dad an officer?
On what 1/4th did you mean? 1/4th Gurkhas wasn't there not even 1/4th Bombay Grenadiers. 3/4th Bombay Grenadiers supported 19th Indian Division. If those berets on your picture are really black (colours on picture are quite bad so I can't be 100% sure) then they can only be part of some RAC units. So you than have two possibility: 150th RAC or 7th Cavalry. He didn't have to be in tank, every regiment also had support elements like recce troop, signal troop and etc. Was your dad an officer? Sorry Sol, just re-read my own link it was the 1/4 of the Q.E. Own Gurkha Rifles who arrrived on 10th March when the battle for Mandaly Hill, was nearly over see the last link above. I agree with the point about the Berets and is it possible that being as Dad spoke of being in a Spearhead unit that he was part of a Recce outfit? and Dad was not a officer made corporal a few times but got busted!
