Malcolm Alfred CHINN, DOB 23/04/1912 Service No. 210284

Transferring from my Introduction thread.

I'm looking into my Grandfather's service, particularly his time in Italy, in order to plan a trip with my Dad to the places he went to during his time there.

We're piecing together what we have from papers and family recollection but Malcolm died when I was a teenager, I knew him and don't ever remember him talking about the war - I was an air cadet and he did teach me how to 'bull' my boots very well and to this day, I do like to keep my shoes shiny

Anyway, I digress. Back on target.
What I had from Dad was that Malcolm was in the "Royal Army Service Corps"and served his time as a driver and served in N Africa and Italy, ending his war "under canvass near Naples".

After a little bit of a false start, due to a schoolboy error on my part, we mobilised Dad's younger brother, Uncle Ian. Turns out Ian's a star and has "quite a lot" of information on Malcolm's service. He's copying what he has and sending me the copies but in the meantime, here's what we know from paperwork in Ian's stash.

Malcolm Alfred Chinn
Army service number 210284
calling up date 20/07/1940
served in Royal army ordnance corp 38 Vehicle company
Rank on leaving Lieutenant / corporal
Release leave certificate 10/12 1945 whilst on service in Naples Italy.

The rank thing is strange to me but I'll get some more info (I always thought the was a private soldier from enlistment to discharge) how can he be an Officer and and NCO?

We've tied down Malcolm's DoB to 23/04/1912. Just for cross referencing, he was married to Caroline (Carrie) Nellie (maiden name Sealey) and they lived in May Lane, Birmingham.

The aim of all this is to see where he went in order to plan a trip with Dad but now I'm into it, I'd like to find out as much as I can about what he did, with whom and when - basically what was Malcolm's war like?

 

L/Cpl = Lance Corporal.

 

Now that makes sense!

 

His number ties in with RASC enlistment mid 1940, but his discharge unit is RAOC so at some point he transferred - oddly I recently picked up a group to another member of 38 Vehicle company RAOC Gallantry service and Paybooks just had a look in case by some miracle your grandfather gets any kind of mention but no luck. What I would say is that while your Grandfather was with 38th at the point of discharge he may only have been with them late in his service (my chap seemed to join them late and again had started in the RASC), at the end of the war there was lots of moving around as men were discharged and needed replaced and units were broken up so researching their movements all through Italy may or may not be useful, as others have mentioned his Service Records are key.

 

The officer question might resolved by someone looking into records of the London Gazette where a mans acceptance and Commission as an officer is announced.
Not as easy as it sounds.

He could have become an officer in one of two ways, Commissioned "in the Field" by the Colonel of a Regiment early in the war, or more likely, by attending an OCTU (Officer Cadet Training Unit).
Once Commissioned he has been "appointed to the peerage". become a higher class in army terms.
There is no demotion without an enquiry of some sort.
Easily identified in his Service Record if you apply for one but searchable on line.

Officers are easier to find as the War Diaries list the names and numbers and appointments of "Officers in the Field" on an official Returns Sheet similar to a register. Officers are paid monthly o/r's weekly in cash, in line with factory workers
shop floor or monthly staff.

Other Ranks are only given in counts unless in Hospital, where there may be a request for them to be returned to their unit rather than linger on X or Y list.

Promotion to an NCO is more local within his unit provided he meets the criteria and War Establishment n(umber of NCO's permitted).

If you want informed opinions, please post the original documents on here, for various people with the required knowledge to view and transcribe.

 

British Army ranks | National Army Museum

You mention RAOC not RASC (Royal Army Ordnance Corps)
Royal Army Ordnance Corps | National Army Museum

This might be useful:
royal army ordnance corps | WW2Talk

I will drop by later to see how you are doing.

 

Service records as suggested in the other thread or you get bombarded with info that may or not be relevant and family memories could be clouded.

 

Thanks chaps, as soon as I get documentation I'll share on here, rest assured. I can see that cross referencing and verifying is going to be important.

There are some 'oral history' parts to what I have on Malcolm, some may be embellished and/or misremembered. Some of this is coming back to me, like I said, he died when I was a teenager and I'm late 50's now.

• He worked with the "Americans". I don't really know the context of this or how likely it was.
• He had something to do with tanks (he wasn't a mechanic), I always assumed he was driving them but that could just my teenage self putting "driver" and "tank" together
• He drove American trucks. There's the story that his passenger was shot and this was because it was a left hand drive truck and the sniper was aiming at the wrong side. My Dad has a recollection of this story being one of the few that Malcolm recounted, the inference being that the passenger was a mate and was killed in the incident.
• I can't remember the context but he had joked with me that "everyone took cover when the American planes were bombing" so he may have been on the receiving end of friendly fire.

None of this is verifiable at the moment, I'm just dropping into the thread as a place to record it!

 

BTW, I need a death certificate to get his records, hopefully Uncle Ian will have this in his bundle, I'll complete the application for the service records as soon as I have this (or confirmation it's lost, then I'll get a replacement organised)

 

I have contacted Findmypast on more that one occasion pointing out the there is no such rank, but the error is still there. You'll also find Lieutenant-bombardier and I imagine, Lieutenant sergeant. (There's a thought!)

I've also come across the same error in the National Archives' descriptions of the content of the WO 208 series.

So, DangerMouse, I wouldn't go down the officer route at the moment.

Vitellino

 

J, you may like to read this (link below) given some of the things and places you've mentioned.

Lots of parallels with what you know of your grandad, and as and when you have his service record there may be connections that can be made for definite.

In the meantime, it's a good story, commented on at the very end by one of the late stalwarts of the forum here, the dear fella Ron Goldstein.

Kind regards, always remember, never forget,

Jim.

BBC - WW2 People's War - Vehicle Ferrying with 38 Vehicle Company RAOC, CMF.

 

Thanks Jim, I found that picture and put the page in the queue for reading - so I'm pleased I'm looking in the right places! The account has many echos of what I've been told so one to come back to when I get the records.
Thanks for helping out

 

It is very clearly Lance Corporal or LCpl.

F

 

Well, Uncle Ian has come up trumps! A small package of scans of some very fragile and well worn documents has arrived. I'll post some here in case anyone's interested but it's a great start and means I am starting to piece things together.
First off, here are some photos so here's the man himself. It looks like pre-Africa but I've no detail of where any of these were taken

 

They come out rather bigger than I expected, here's one in N Africa I think

 

I'm assuming Malcolm is in here somewhere and that this was taken in the UK pre-deployment.

 

This is my favourite photo - looks like they took one all tidy and sensible then said, "Right, now one for the girls - look all rakish and like you've been in action!"

 

Now for the documents.

Army driving licence showing he joined up into RASC (from the stamp), 186 Coy, 15 D.T.C. (I think that's' what it says - Driver Training Centre?) 27 Squad.
This was issued a week after he was called up.

 

Army Form W5258 Record of Service.
This gives me the dates of his move form RACS to the RAOC.
RASC 20/07/40 to 30/09/42
RAOC 1/10/42 to 26/03/46

Interesting that this is dated 8 Jan 46

 

Proof he was in Naples as part of 38 Vehicle Coy RAOC.
Although the unit is stated as "No2 Port Det 9 Veh Park"