M8 Greyhound vs TigerII

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by kfz, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    Looking for any sources to back up below recent video. Smells fishy to me, like first checkpoint for me is can a 37mm M3 gun even penetrate the rear of a Tiger?



    Kev
     
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  2. Dave55

    Dave55 Very Senior Member Patron

    Wiki says 36mm to 61mm penetration at 500 yards so it could probably do it at point blank range.

    37 mm Gun M3 - Wikipedia
     
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Well, film states rear Tiger armour is 80mm and the M8 fired 3 shots from 25ish yards - it doesn't say what type of shots were fired HE or AP.

    TD
     
  4. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    The rear armour plate was between 80 and 82 mm thick and set at 30% from vertical sloping inwards.
    Could be possible with three AP rounds in the same place at 25 yards.
    It would take 30 seconds or more to turn the turret from front to rear.
    I would have expected medals being issued to the crew as the 37 mm wasn't called a Pea Shooter or Door Knocker for nothing.
    Brave Commander is all I can say.
    Regards
    Tom
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
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  5. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    Mark Felton's vids are suspect.

    Very, very suspect.

    Many are just reiterations of internet accounts or flat out wartime propaganda. It is deeply unfortunate that he is generating such strong view counts.
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Essentially the same gun as on a Stuart. I've no problem with very short range hits from that causing enough alarm to bail, or even set off a round inside with a lucky shot. (though I don't really do the 'penetration' thing. I find it usually mostly irrelevant in the real world.)

    Not the poshest source, but a 2017 mention
    World War 2 In Review No. 13: American Fighting Vehicles:

    upload_2018-11-27_17-26-48.png

    Does all smell a tad internet-y, but the inclusion of specific units is intriguing.
    Troop B, 87th Cavalry Recon.
    Schonberg road.

    Anything in the ATB Bulge book?

    Interesting that it seems to have popped up on the Internerd around 2015, but then there's this chap on WoT:
    M8 Greyhound vs "Tiger" - Armored Vehicle History
    Who mentions a US army publication:
    The Battle at St. Vith, Belgium, 17-23 December 1944
    Wherein the fuller text of the above quote.
    I don't own the book to check references.
    1988:

    Capture.JPG1.JPG Capture.JPG 222232323.JPG


    Possibly some uncertainty as to whether Tigger 1 or 2
     
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  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Also, doesn't say there they shot the turret.
    Suspect an M8 at very close range could quite easily bang a few rounds into the engine decks.

    And I forgot the note:

    Capture.JPG
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

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  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Newspaper report of a Similar British encounter.
    Death of a Tiger Tank « Lone Sentry Blog

    What gets me reading around this, is that there's still so much shock or guffawing out there from the Panzer fanboys that anything like this might have happened.
    They really seem to carry the belief the things were invulnerable... Show me a machine that's invulnerable, ever, at any time. War is nasty. Steel & flesh is fallible. Physics are a bastard. Bravery or sheer bloody-mindedness has a power all of its own. FFS.
     
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  10. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I can confirm that the 37mm as modelled in the old Close Combat: Battle of the Bulge always seemed rather overpowered. I'm guessing they'd read the accounts above.

    Added to that, one of Don Juan's books has some rather depressing data from a trial of the 37mm against the 'best in class' 2pr. The 37mm had significantly better performance, IRC mostly because of its APCBC outperforming the 2pr plain AP.
     
  11. Dave55

    Dave55 Very Senior Member Patron

    For what it's worth the M8 wiki entry footnotes the encounter with these:

    4. Beevor, Antony (2015). Ardennes 1944: Hitler’s last gamble. New York: Viking. p. 172. ISBN 978-0-670-91864-5.

    5. U. S. Army Armor School Staff (1998), The Battle at St. Vith, Belgium, 17–23 December 1944: An Historical Example of Armor in the Defense, Merriam Press, pp. 31–32, ISBN 978-1-57638-145-8
     
  12. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    He is just after viewing figure so he is making films where (mainly) all the silly Uber-Panzer stories are given a quick wash and brush-up. They are absolutely garbage as any form of reference. Its all about likes folks and the thicker his audience the more he likes it!
     
  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Only mention of the 87th Cavalry Recce Squadron in ATB page 199 states joining 20th December a detachment of 203rd AAA battalion.
     
  14. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    Thanks Guys great response.
     
  15. No information to add to what has already been provided; however, the document, ‘The Battle of St. Vith, Belgium, 17–23 December 1944; an Historical Example of Armor in the Defense’ is available to download from the US DoD’s Defense Technical Information Center here, with the passage and footnote that vP attached on p.12. It has a report date of July 1969 and is the ‘3rd edition’ with a foreword dated 1966, ruling it out as being an internet fairy tale (maybe Arpanet though?—those wild and crazy guys).
     
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  16. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    There were a couple of TIIs from sPz Abt 506 in the Schonberg area on Dec 21st but no losses were reported in TIC1. The nearest loss is near Kehmen in Luxembourg some 35 km to the south on Dec 24th. That is the only possible TIIs anywhere near St Vith.
    It may have happened but the damage quickly repaired and the Tiger moved on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
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  17. idler

    idler GeneralList

    If there is a grain of truth in the story, the misidentification of a Panther as a Tiger II seems more likely.
     
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  18. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    As suspected.

    Also this makes the performance of the Squirrel Gun more like against the Panther's rear armour of 40mm, half that of the TII.

    Kev
     
  19. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    this might have sorted it
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    According to Ordnance Board figures, the 37mm with Littlejohn adaptor could penetrate 94mm at point blank, 89mm at 200 yds, and 84mm at 400 yds.

    But I doubt many of these were provided to the Americans.
     

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