and that it would be much more valuable in Special Operations. ...not to mention the several squadrons' of Lizzies given over to ASR
One of the 1940 diaries posted refers to the Luftwaffe using a captured Lysander over Leuven during May 1940. ('Captured in Finland'). Is this capture documented and was it known about beforehand ? I can imagine that it didn't make use by the RAF over the front lines any safer.
Rich, Finland seens to have had @3 x Mk Is and 9 x Mk IIIs! Makes sense when they were building Mercuries under license... WINGS PALETTE - Westland Lysander - Finland and Westland Lysanders by Yukinobu Nishikawa (Artwork, no scale) Seventeen were ordered, but only twelve arrived - originally ordered by the Estonians but later diverted to the Finns - a MkI was lost on the ferry flight. Most of them served in Lentolaivue 16. Several early Model III aircrafts were exported to Finland for fighting the war against the USSR in the early stage of WWII. Exported Mk-III’s to Finland were early productions so the sliding canopy for the observation seat was the same design as the previous model. Defensive fire was carried at by a single mounted Lewis type machine-gun, which was confirmed by the photo of another Finish Lysander. I can't help thinking though that this - One of the 1940 diaries posted refers to the Luftwaffe using a captured Lysander over Leuven during May 1940. ('Captured in Finland'). Is this capture documented and was it known about beforehand ? ...sounds a bit dubious...1940? Unless the Soviets gave one to the Germans???
As regards captured Lysanders being used by the Germans against the BEF,there is a note in the May edition of the Aeroplane where a reader relates that his father who was very knowledgeable in aircraft recognition gave evidence of this. His father was in the Warwickshire Regiment at Dunkirk and witnessed a Lysander overflying British troops at low altitude which was not fired on by either side.Later they discovered that it was a captured aircraft, flown by Germans, being used to give away British positions. Any confirmation in the Warwickshire Regiment or other regimental diaries?.
Hi Harry - in the meantime I've had a friend consult Jean-Louis Roba's quite comprehensive FOREIGN PLANES IN THE SERVICE OF THE LUFTWAFFE... ...and it shows It shows a picture of a captured Lysander in Libya, somewhere between June '41-Oct'42. It then goes on to state that the Germans captured 2 more in France when they were employed in special ops's - which would tend to suggest that it couldn't be as early as 1940.
For the observation to be correct,the Lysander would have had to be captured from the BEF. Ultimately,there were 5 squadrons operating in France dropping supplies to the BEF defenders of Calais and bombing the enemy on the Calais perimeter. The donor squadron would have to been an aircraft from the original squadrons,namely Nos 2,4,13 or No 26 Squadron which were first into France as the Air Component of the BEF in September 1939.No 16 Squadron made up the Component to 5 squadrons in April 1940. It would appear that the topic had been aired before in the Aeroplane and the May note was the response to it
There is of course another candidate, one with a very similar planform when flying at medium/high altitudes... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hs126
I thought you Lysander buffs would be interested in the following incident: WORLD WAR II INCIDENTS Fatal accident at Winterbourne Gunner Saturday 23rd October 1943 Although gas had not been used so far in World War Two, the possibility of chemical warfare was still taken very seriously, both the enemy and the allies had stockpiles of various types of gas and all Services were continually trained in defence against gas. The Army School of Chemical Warfare (Winterbourne Wing), located in Winterbourne Gunner ran various courses in protection against chemical attack. One such course was for Non Commissioned Officers and NCOs and Course No 24 W was held in October 1943. On return to their regiments, those who had successfully completed the course they would become unit instructors in defence against chemical warfare. Part of the Course was called 'Gas in the Field' and in one particular part of this period, they would be subjected to simulated gas in the form of a harmless water based training liquid, delivered by a low flying aircraft. This was delivered without warning and was designed to test them in how long it took to don respirators and thus save their lives. Between 12.45 and 13.00 hours on Saturday 23rd October 1943, a column of some 160 troops (men and women) were marching on a road on the ranges in 'column of route', that is three abreast. RAF Lysander (R 2613) fitted with a special canister filled with a harmless liquid spray to simulate gas droplets took off at 12.35 from Boscombe Down tasked with flying low over the whole column of troops beginning the release of the spray a little ahead of them. This Lysander was part of the Special Duties Flight which had been formed in 1938 to work with the Civil Defence Experimental Establishment at Porton. The main task was to investigate the air delivery of poison gas but they also assisted the Army School of Chemical Warfare on their courses. Details of this Flight and its work is not readily available from RAF Records but it is known that a number of Lysanders were equipped with canisters for this task. On this occasion the pilot concerned had 53 similar runs to his credit and was therefore extremely well used to the exercise. He flew into the wind which was about 15 mph and approached the column head on. Just ahead of the column he released the spray but at the same time the canister was seen to fall from the Lysander among the marching troops. It struck those towards the rear of the column killing five women members of the A.T.S. (Auxiliary Training Service) and two men, both from the Royal Artillery. Seven more women of the A.T.S. and the Canadian WAC (Women's Army Corps) were injured together with one male soldier. An enquiry was immediately held followed later by a Court of Inquiry. The exact findings of the Inquiry are not known but from what can be gleaned it appears to have been judged a tragic accident. The pilot had two separate controls, one to release just the spray and a second to release the canister, similar to that used to release a bomb. There were two separate controls of course, the canister release control was not to be used on this exercise as the pilot was required only to release the spray. It was decided that there must have been a short circuit when the spray release control was activated which initiated the second control thus releasing the canister with the subsequent fatal result. The same Lysander was refitted with a similar container and flown again more than once to try and reproduce the failure, but without success. An exceptional and unexplained short circuit on the fatal flight must be the strongest possibility for the accident. Those who died in the accident were:- W/187708 Lance Corporal Margaret Ann CROFT ATS Aged 23 Daughter of William Arthur and May Frances Croft of Putney. She is buried in South Ealing Cemetery, Section D, Row D, Grave 3. W/176983 Lance Corporal Louisa Jane KULKE ATS Aged 21 Daughter of Henry Robert and Bertha Kulke of Penarth. She is buried in Penarth Cemetery, Section D, Grave 329. W/42911 Sergeant Joan Margaret MARSHALL ATS Aged 21 Daughter of Harold and Hilda Armstrong of Manchester and wife of Richard Marshall. She is buried in St Luke's churchyard, Cheetham Hill, and commemorated on the Screen Wall of Manchester Southern Cemetery. W/6701 Company Sergeant Major Dorothy Isa Gray MORRHALL ATS Aged 24 Daughter of George Cowie Gray and Lilian Gray and wife of Edward Geoffrey Morrhall of Ellesmere, Shropshire. W/44804 Corporal Kathleen Margaret REYNOLDS ATS Aged 26 She was cremated at the Manchester Crematorium and is commemorated on a memorial stone near the entrance to the grounds. Details of her family are not known. 1567696 Bombardier Martin McCANN RA Aged 23 Son of James and Jan McCann and husband of Florence Ellen McCann of Deptford. He is buried in Greenwich Cemetery, Plot E, Grave 516. 1558775 Bombardier Herbert WOOD RA Aged 27 Son of George Herbert and Mary E Wood of Leeds and husband of Evelyn Wood of Cross Gates, Leeds. He is buried in St James's churchyard, Manston. Those who were wounded were:- W/210089 Corporal M M PRESTON ATS W/187083 Corporal M INGRAM ATS W/123932 Corporal J HUNT ATS W/19734 Corporal F E WALKER ATS W/168424 Sergeant M CORNES ATS 2017 Staff Sergeant S M QUINN WAC (Canadian) 2080 Corporal J M McDONALD WAC (Canadian) 5187819 Sergeant FUDGE
http://www.vintagewings.ca/Aircraft/tabid/66/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/9/language/en-CA/The-Sergeant-Clifford-Stewart-Westland-Lysander-IIIA.aspx http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Lysander.html A couple of interesting links
