Lost samurai swords

Discussion in 'War Against Japan' started by Bob Turner, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. Wah

    Wah Junior Member

    I knew a guy that was involved in the making of a Saxon "folded" sword, and he said that the pattern really came out, when the swordsmith rubbed the blade down with oil (I believe he said it was linseed rather than a mineral oil)

    When you say that you tried to downlad it from their site, did you mean the makers or the broadcasters? The broadcasters have a download button but I haven't tried it. Raiders of the Lost Past: Yesterday TV

    Bob,
    Thanks for the idea on the linseed oil trick. It sounds interesting.
    I tried downloading from both sights and they keep saying my card was declined. They said it was because I needed to call my card company and have the funds cleared. I called the card company and they said there were no records of my declined transactions or any records at all from them.
    Oh well, it would have been fun to see, but it doesn't really matter.

    Download costs £4.00

    Cheers
    Paul

    Thanks Paul!

    Wah,

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    Regards
    Tom

    Thank You Tom, I am happy to be here.:D

    Stephen
     
  2. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    A good tip is to borrow a pair of binoculars, and look through the wrong end of them at the blade edge. It's a poor man's microscope.

    With the idea of softly softy catch a monkey, I'd e mail about your difficulty downloading the programme. A paragraph about that problem. Then just a couple of lines, saying you would really like to see it, as you believe you have the sword. Failing a download, could they pass on your questions about the show to the producers.

    If I were the producer, I'd be a bit wary but I'd be a total idiot not to follow up on your mail. Of course I'd also feign disinterest. I'd know that if true I'd have an award winning show to put on, something worth money. It's your job to read any fine print and make sure you don't sign away any book or newspaper rights.
     
  3. Wah

    Wah Junior Member

    A good tip is to borrow a pair of binoculars, and look through the wrong end of them at the blade edge. It's a poor man's microscope.

    With the idea of softly softy catch a monkey, I'd e mail about your difficulty downloading the programme. A paragraph about that problem. Then just a couple of lines, saying you would really like to see it, as you believe you have the sword. Failing a download, could they pass on your questions about the show to the producers.

    If I were the producer, I'd be a bit wary but I'd be a total idiot not to follow up on your mail. Of course I'd also feign disinterest. I'd know that if true I'd have an award winning show to put on, something worth money. It's your job to read any fine print and make sure you don't sign away any book or newspaper rights.

    Bob,
    I have taken close-ups of the whole sword to compare with the line drawing so that works for me. :D
    I am interested in seeing the documentary but I am not a spotlight kind of guy. When I see someone who may have an intrest , like this forum, I try to share. However, to get international recognition would not be my cup of tea. Best regards, ST
     
  4. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    I think that the story would be of interest to the likes of the History Channel, BBC2 and 4, Yesterday and Discovery. If you appeared on any documentary, you might be remembered for a few days by a handful of history geeks like us. Though to be honest, I could watch a programme one night and walk past all the "talking heads," from it the next day, without a flicker of recognition.

    Then again, a programme maker is after telling the story, if you don't want to be in it, they'll find a work around.

    Japan is another matter, you might have celebrity status thrust upon you there. There might be huge, but polite, interest in you, if you went there. Just grin and bear it, it won't last forever.
     
  5. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    I asked my mate about this and he says it's okay to polish it with bees wax. So oil it with linseed then polish it with wax and a clean cloth. Obviously don't sharpen it or use an any power tool to bring up the shine on the wax. He said that it can't hurt anything and it can be removed easily.
     
  6. Wah

    Wah Junior Member

    I asked my mate about this and he says it's okay to polish it with bees wax. So oil it with linseed then polish it with wax and a clean cloth. Obviously don't sharpen it or use an any power tool to bring up the shine on the wax. He said that it can't hurt anything and it can be removed easily.

    I dont understand what the linseed oil and wax does. Is it for protection? I just use WD 40. I can say that has worked well for the last ten years. I dont get it out but maybe once in 1.5 years so it doesn't get handled much.

    So, what did you think about the video comparisons?
     
  7. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA Patron

    I wouldn't recommend WD-40. It is designed to clean parts and remove mositure, not really to preserve and protect metal.
     
  8. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    Yes, WD40 is not the oil of choice! Far too corrosive. Why linseed oil? I don't know, it's still the oil of choice for painters, in spite of the fact that chemists have been trying to make better stuff for years. The plant oils just seem to have a better optical quality, that makes what's underneath "glow."

    I'd slop a lot of linseed, or almond oil, onto the blade, as much to get rid of the oil you've been using, as to bring up the pattern. Leave it a couple of days; though linseed is very slow drying; then use bees wax to protect the blade. It buffs up brilliantly but it's hard work with just a cloth. It is tempting to stick a sheep skin buff on an electric drill but that's deeply frowned upon. Buy the proper bees wax, at an art store, don't use beeswax car polish.

    Test out the process on a bit of steel, it works. (Hell I'd be much more nervous of using WD 40. I'd be scared to even breath on a sword valued at about two billion dollars!)

    The evidence of your youtube videos looks pretty good so far but it really needs an expert to examine the actual thing.
     
  9. Wah

    Wah Junior Member

    Yes, WD40 is not the oil of choice! Far too corrosive. Why linseed oil? I don't know, it's still the oil of choice for painters, in spite of the fact that chemists have been trying to make better stuff for years. The plant oils just seem to have a better optical quality, that makes what's underneath "glow."

    I'd slop a lot of linseed, or almond oil, onto the blade, as much to get rid of the oil you've been using, as to bring up the pattern. Leave it a couple of days; though linseed is very slow drying; then use bees wax to protect the blade. It buffs up brilliantly but it's hard work with just a cloth. It is tempting to stick a sheep skin buff on an electric drill but that's deeply frowned upon. Buy the proper bees wax, at an art store, don't use beeswax car polish.

    Test out the process on a bit of steel, it works. (Hell I'd be much more nervous of using WD 40. I'd be scared to even breath on a sword valued at about two billion dollars!)

    The evidence of your youtube videos looks pretty good so far but it really needs an expert to examine the actual thing.


    Dave and Bob,
    Thank you both for your input.
    I am a little bit leary of putting linseed oil and wax on it as I prefer to stick with what's traditional if I did do anything different. I think the Japanese use chogi oil. I will look into it linseed and wax though.
    ..Billion dollar blade.... Haha, I remember that. Ah what fun it was to make them squirm!
    No the blade is not worth that kind of cash. I did finally find out what Masamune's have sold for in the past but since I am a foreigner I dont expect to get top dollar.
    Having an expert to examine it is the problem. They are in Japan and I am in the good ole USA. An old deceased sword collector friend of mine gave me his opinion on the sword and who to trust and who not to. He said,

    " this sword needs to be taken to shinsa in Japan as there are no experts in the USA." He continued, "If you intend to keep it do not send it to Japan, because they will find a way to keep it. Do not send it to a polisher and do not trust the dealers."
    He told me, "if you want my opinion, yes it is the lost Masamune."
    His name: Dean Hartley. RIP.:(

    Well guys, I just wanted to share since I saw you had an intrest. Thanks for everything, Stephen:D
     
  10. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    Hi Steve, of course that's not what the sword would cost at auction but it is a perfectly reasonable value. If you wanted to buy the Mono Lisa, or the Lindisfarne gospels you have to assign a value of replacement. You have to insure the work, you have to build a purpose built place to keep the thing. You have to pay for security and staff. It's a game for mega corporations or states.

    As I've said, you can negotiate a "finder's fee", and I'm quite sure that the Japanese government would play ball. They cannot be seen to be ransoming back what's rightfully theirs. It would all have to be done behind closed doors.

    If you have the "real I am" article, then you are handling stolen goods. That means you have to be very careful about any approaches you make, to any interested party. One wrong word on your part and they could slap the cuffs on you.
     
  11. Wah

    Wah Junior Member

    Hi Steve, of course that's not what the sword would cost at auction but it is a perfectly reasonable value. If you wanted to buy the Mono Lisa, or the Lindisfarne gospels you have to assign a value of replacement. You have to insure the work, you have to build a purpose built place to keep the thing. You have to pay for security and staff. It's a game for mega corporations or states.

    As I've said, you can negotiate a "finder's fee", and I'm quite sure that the Japanese government would play ball. They cannot be seen to be ransoming back what's rightfully theirs. It would all have to be done behind closed doors.

    If you have the "real I am" article, then you are handling stolen goods. That means you have to be very careful about any approaches you make, to any interested party. One wrong word on your part and they could slap the cuffs on you.


    Bob,
    Hello,
    I have to disagree however that it is stolen property. There was a treaty called the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951 that was signed by the parties involved, so what was illegal to own just after the war became legal to own in 1951.
    ST
     
  12. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    Hi steve, that has to be a legal minefield. Two people in the world you never want to hear a low whistle from, a plumber and a barrister.

    The American government gave back swords that had been handed in. Even if that sergeant had taken the sword straight to Macarthur and given it to him, the simple truth is, that Macarthur was not the shogun, but an employee of the American state; as of course was the sergeant.

    The sword belongs to either the American government, or its prior owner. Nation states can call loot a just reparation but the sergeants of this world are just called crooks.

    Personally, I'd love to see the court case, as well as being darkly labyrinthine, it would have certain other parties squirming. Swiss bankers, I think it would be great to see their little nest eggs of stolen goods confiscated.
     
  13. Wah

    Wah Junior Member

    Hi steve, that has to be a legal minefield. Two people in the world you never want to hear a low whistle from, a plumber and a barrister.

    The American government gave back swords that had been handed in. Even if that sergeant had taken the sword straight to Macarthur and given it to him, the simple truth is, that Macarthur was not the shogun, but an employee of the American state; as of course was the sergeant.

    The sword belongs to either the American government, or its prior owner. Nation states can call loot a just reparation but the sergeants of this world are just called crooks.

    Personally, I'd love to see the court case, as well as being darkly labyrinthine, it would have certain other parties squirming. Swiss bankers, I think it would be great to see their little nest eggs of stolen goods confiscated.

    Because I can see where this is going, I shall quietly step out of this conversation. Wah;)
     
  14. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    Best of luck then Steve, with whatever you decide to do. Though if you decide on keeping it, then you might as well polish it. Especially if you intend to bury it somewhere. I bet there's still shed loads of claymores buried in the Highlands and Islands, just in case of a new Pretender. :D
     
  15. paul burton

    paul burton Junior Member

    I watched the t.v. programme "Raiders of the Lost Past," last night and they were on about an American sergeant who took a bunch of swords away from a police station. One was the most valuable samurai sword in the world.

    If any member here has got it, I'm prepared to offer as much as £2 17s 6d for it :D
    £2 17s 6d for the most valuable samurai sword in the world lol bob please lol i aint selling for less than a fiver:lol:
     
  16. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    Hey! That's a pint where I live ;) I thought the offer would appeal to people not into material acquisition, old buddhist hippies, vicars and total loonies. The funniest post in the thread is the one by the bloke who claims to have it, his cleaning regime sounds brilliant. I can just see some old samurai, sitting in the "Samurai wheel tappers and shunters club," having heart attacks on reading that.
     
  17. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA Patron

    Bill: "That sword was priceless!"

    Bud" "Well, in El Paso it was worth $250."

    :)
     
  18. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    In the u.k. it's become something of an obsession to try and recreate the pattern of an Anglo Saxon sword. I don't think anyone has managed to do it yet. The core of the sword has to be flexible steel, and that acts as a sort of cushion for the more brittle edge of the weapon. You have to take a billet of iron and hand work it down. Then you need to twist the red hot metal.

    When I was a kid, two schoolboys could turn a winter scar into a weapon. They would each take an end and counter twist it. When it was good and tight, one kid would hook his finger at the middle and then both ends would be brought together. The scarf then would twist itself into a rope, and you could bash people over the head with it.

    That's what the swordsmiths did but they are using cherry red steel! Getting that natural twisting right is the tricky bit. Once you have that you need to flatten it down and add a separate edge round it. The edge would be painted with willow charcoal fine dust to harden it. All done, and polished with bees wax, the twisted pattern comes out as perfect chevrons. Or it should do but as I say, no one has done it spot on yet.

    The upshot is, that these swords unequaled until the samurai sword of about 700 years later. Easy slice a bloke in two!
     
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    In the u.k. it's become something of an obsession to try and recreate the pattern of an Anglo Saxon sword. I don't think anyone has managed to do it yet. The core of the sword has to be flexible steel, and that acts as a sort of cushion for the more brittle edge of the weapon. You have to take a billet of iron and hand work it down. Then you need to twist the red hot metal.

    ...

    That's what the swordsmiths did but they are using cherry red steel! Getting that natural twisting right is the tricky bit. Once you have that you need to flatten it down and add a separate edge round it. The edge would be painted with willow charcoal fine dust to harden it. All done, and polished with bees wax, the twisted pattern comes out as perfect chevrons. Or it should do but as I say, no one has done it spot on yet.


    Allow me to introduce a friend of mine, Bob:
    Paul Binns Swords - Pattern Welding
    ;)

    Back to the Japanese Swords - new little video from the Tower on their WW2 trophies.

    [YOUTUBE]r0i9B-AscJU[/YOUTUBE]

    I hadn't heard of this 'Ingham Gift Collection' (or maybe hadn't noticed it... not sure if it's at the Leeds or London site - only been to the Leeds one recently).
     
  20. Bob Turner

    Bob Turner Senior Member

    Ah, I'm really impressed by those blades. I think the last image is stunning, it would be a pleasure to get your head cleaved off with that :D
     

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