Looking for son of Italian POW in Yorkshire during WW2

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Elisa1979, May 8, 2018.

  1. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Perhaps issuing the photo as an article in a local paper may bring forth some useful information

    I obviously do not have any idea what might be local papers, but perhaps other members might

    TD
     
  2. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    As referred to earlier,The Selby Times is the local weekly newspaper and has been established many years.It has an archive which is posted online but I cannot see how to access it.Probably the best option is to email them and raise the topic with them.
     
  3. Elisa1979

    Elisa1979 Member

    I'll write to the newspaper to know if they have something in their archives and maybe in the meantime Harry finds something by his nephews...☺
     
  4. TriciaF

    TriciaF Junior Member

    Harry Ree wrote
    "Elisa ......Italian POWs posed no problems for their captors,it was thought that they were pleased to be out of the conflict.As my mother said "they are harmless,all they want to do is whistle at the girls"...
    The certainly looked a cheerful bunch on Elisa's photo :)
     
    Elisa1979 likes this.
  5. Elisa1979

    Elisa1979 Member

    He actually had good memories about that period also because ha said that they were treated well by the farmers, they didn't feel like prisoners.
     
  6. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    After talking to my sister who has lived in the area since 1965,it looks as if the former POW camp has been identified.

    The location was on the west side of The Barff with the entrance off Gateforth Lane on the south side with the main entrance opposite Fox Lane,Thorpe Willoughby.....indicated on old 1960 OS map. (I described it as the back way from Brayton to Hambleton in Post #6 with a branch off the Gateforth....the lane is now a dead end from both sides at the Selby Bypass A 63 which was constructed in the about 15 years ago and splits the area.)

    My sister remembers learning to drive on the POW camp site in 1965 and recalls the access roads were still usable apart from the odd drain manhole drain covers being missing.The camp consisted of flat roof brick buildings which were in an advanced state of decay.A hangar type building remained and was thought to be associated with vehicle servicing.Later the Selby Golf Club bought some of the land for an extension but the remainder of the site bears little resemblance of being a former military location being overgrown and left to nature.

    My nephews used to play on the site looking for "bullets"....apparently there was also a firing range on The Barff probably associated with the camp.It would appear that when it was accessible the site was popular for walking

    https://www.northyorks.gov.uk/sites... way/Local_circular_walks/Selby_horseshoe.pdf

    Looking at the above North Yorkshire leisure map,the former POW Camp was in the area designated as 58 in blue lettering.The Trans Pennine Trail passes by the west side of The Barff which would be the edge of the former camp.

    From the York OS Map 1960, the location of POW No 53 Brayton,Selby is indicated.
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. Elisa1979

    Elisa1979 Member

    I'm so grateful that you've located the site so precisely!
    For sure I'll be there in July and walk on those streets...
    Thank you so much!
     
  8. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Elisa

    If you launch Google Earth and search for Fox Lane,Thorpe Willoughby,Selby,you will be able to see that at the south end of Fox Lane at the junction of Gateforth Lane,straight across is the opening to the former POW camp...the opening is still there presumably now for access to the land.It appears that there is now a hedge running north to south where the access road continued south and the whole area has reverted to agriculture.

    At the Fox Lane/Gateforth Lane junction,the nearest farm to the former POW camp is Barff House Farm which lies about 500 yards east towards Brayton on Gateforth Lane....the farm is on the left hand side of the road,clearly shown at the bottom of The Barff.

    Hopefully your visit leads to establishing contact with what is your uncle
     
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  9. Elisa1979

    Elisa1979 Member

    Thank you Harry, you couldn't have been more precise.
    I'll book a room As Close As possible to that place, and I Hope to be Lucky in the search...
    I'll keep you up to date.
     
  10. Elisa1979

    Elisa1979 Member

    Hi everybody,
    On Monday I'll be in Selby for a few days and I've a meeting with a journalist of the Selby Times. I hope it's a start.
    Thank you all for your cooperation,
    Elisa
     
  11. smdarby

    smdarby Well-Known Member

    Hi Elisa,

    I've only just come across this thread. It's interesting for me as I grew up in and around Selby in the '70's and '80's. I still visit there to see relatives now and again. I never knew of the POW camp at Brayton.

    Hope you enjoy Selby. Monday is always market day, so there should be plenty going on. The Abbey is worth a visit if you get the time. Another thought - it might be worth popping into Selby library to see if they have any information.

    All the best, and please let us know how you get on.

    Shaun
     
    papiermache likes this.
  12. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Hi Elisa et all,

    another thought. Like my name, in different parts of the world, it is totally different.
    Paul translates to: e.g. Peter, Paulus, Petros, Pede.

    Did your grandad speak italian, or may be Romagnol and what be Paul in this dialect?

    Stefan
    or Stefano, Stephen, Steve, etc.
     
  13. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Elisa,

    Good luck. Going to the library is a good idea.

    John

    Information about Selby library including contact details and services offered.

    Selby library
    52 Micklegate
    Selby
    YO8 4EQ

    Email: selby.library@northyorks.gov.uk
    Telephone: 01609 534521 (library and visitor information centre)
    Fax: 01757 705396

    Library opening hours
    • Monday, 9.30am to 7.30pm
    • Tuesday, 9.30am to 5.30pm
    • Wednesday, 9.30am to 5.30pm
    • Thursday, 9.30am to 12.30pm
    • Friday, 9.30am to 5.30pm
    • Saturday, 9.30am to 12.30pm
    • Sunday, closed
     
  14. Elisa1979

    Elisa1979 Member

    My grandad spoke both dialect and Italian, but Paul is always translated as Paolo.
    I'll visit for sure the library, I'll stay there about 3 days...
    Thank you again to all for the support, I'll keep you uptodate.
    Elisa
     
  15. Elisa1979

    Elisa1979 Member

    Hi,
    I'm in Selby now. On Monday I met the journalist and if I'm lucky the article'll be on The Selby Times tomorrow!
    In the library I met a very kind and helpful woman that gave me a lot of tips, in particular that there is a Group on Facebook called 'Selby past and present' where documents of that period are usually shared.

    Harry, I went to the place you've marked on the map and it was so accurate that I found exactly the footpath leading to the former camp! In the wood of Brayton Barff there are still some remains of a building, a perimeter made of bricks and the foundation. Really impressive!
    Then I've spoken with the owner of Barff House Farm who was very very kind. He doesn't think my grandfather'd been working for him, but he'll ask to his mom (90y) if she remembers something also looking at the pictures I've shown.

    Any other news as soon as I have it...
     
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  16. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Elisa...... Thanks for the update.

    I was speaking to my sister a few days ago and I mentioned your visit.She said that there was something related in the Selby Times which she will pass to me later this week.

    Regarding the Barff,it was said that there was a rifle range on it.I do not know if you recognised any remains which can be thought of as a firing range.There probably would be the remains of the butt....a large open rectangular brick or concrete structure with soil or sand deposit where the targets were erected.The soil or sand would slope down from the high back of the structure and act as a safety precaution to arrest bullets fired within the butt width from the firing position.

    Incidentally Selby Golf Club might have some detail of when they extended north into the POW camp land.....there must have been some planning permission detail held by the local authorities.

    The Barff House Farm owner's mother will probably be able to cast her mind back to your Grandfather's time in the area....may turn out to be a jewel of historical local knowledge.
     
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  17. Elisa1979

    Elisa1979 Member

    These are the photos I made of the area.
    The Barff house Farmer said these remains were of the army Camp, not the prisoners camp.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Malcolm56

    Malcolm56 Well-Known Member

    Another map - 1958 Ordnance Survey shows the camp - by then changed into a Hostel (West Riding CAEC). CAEC?

    Just to the NE there's another camp - typical, you wait for one and two come along together!
    Anyone know what it was? On the 1966 OS map it was marked as 'Camp(dis)' and after that obliterated by the A63.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I have been able to ascertain where the former POW was and it agrees with what Malcolm has posted.It was not adjacent to the Barff which was the site of the army camp but was further down Gateforth Lane on the north side.Malcolm's map shows the location but I wonder if the camp consisted of two sites as are shown on the map.

    The Middlebrook family established a mushroom farm there which involved a large collection of buildings.From my recollection going back to over 50 years ago when I lived in the next village,the low mushroom sheds were the first buildings from the road.I remember the business as thriving...we used to buy mushrooms there by the basket but much later on after I left the area the business closed after continual labour relation problems between the management and pickers.

    The site has been derelict for some years and it's future appears to be uncertain.There was an application to allow the site to be a showmans' location with accommodation for travellers but local residents objected to that use and the proposal was abandoned.After continual vandalism.....the firing of the derelict sheds,the site has been cleared and it appears that the site might be destined for housing development.
     
    Malcolm56 likes this.
  20. Malcolm56

    Malcolm56 Well-Known Member

    In response to my own question - :rolleyes:

    CAEC = County Agricultural Executive Committee
     

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