Location of Japanese POW camps in Far East

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by Jack Burton, Feb 10, 2017.

  1. Jack Burton

    Jack Burton Member

    IMG_2273.JPG IMG_2273.JPG IMG_2274.JPG Hi,

    New to the forum but have read some posts where members have been able to help fill in the gaps for others.

    I know my grandfather was a pow, always told it was Burma railway. I've done some digging online mainly down to suggestion of websites from these forums and have found the attached images.

    Can anyone find any more info or tell me where these camps were? Details I've found are conflicting. Some saying camp 10 some 4d. Then on the papers it makes specific locations but I can't find those in any lists or indeed on a map. I'm slightly stuck!

    Any info would be much appreciated.

    Thanks,
     
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Hi Jack
    Welcome to the forum. Can I suggest you edit your first post above and revise the title to read perhaps

    Location of Japanese POW camps in Far East

    or

    Information on location of Japanese POW camps in Far East

    This will alert our Far East experts that someone is looking specifically for their help and also it will not be confused with other POW camps e.g in Germany etc

    TD
     
  3. Jack Burton

    Jack Burton Member

    Thanks Tricky. Have made the suggested amendment.
     
  4. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Jack

    Have you got access to the other side of the POW card? It will show lots of additional information about Camps etc.

    Have you seen my "Does anyone here speak Japanese?" thread. Contains a number of useful links including one to a document showing the Japanese writing for Far East POW camps. Sorry I can't post a link to my thread here as I'm in a rush while currently out and about.
     
  5. Jack Burton

    Jack Burton Member

    I haven't got the other side I'm afraid. I found both of these online. Any suggested sites where I may be able to get hold of that?

    I'll search for your other thread.

    Appreciate the help.

    I'm keen to get out there and visit wherever it is/was hence why I'd like to know exactly where he was.

    Many thanks.
     
  6. Jack Burton

    Jack Burton Member

    IMG_2279.JPG I think this is the second page you mentioned?
     
  7. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Jack

    Yes, that's the second page. There are people who visit the Forum occasionally who should be able to help deciphering that lot. They helped on my "Does anyone here....." thread. I'm no expert but the second page includes so-called Japanese Showa dates.
     
  8. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Jack,

    The IJA card isn't terribly informative but it was quite possible to be in various Groups, 4 and 10, as you say. The Japanese term " Camp" included multiple locations many kilos apart which is why the Allies called them Groups. The card may be a replacement for one lost in transit because his earlier career as a PW as shown in his liberation questionnaire is not shown on the card. Fortunately he survived to tell the tale.

    Dates are in the Japanese system so year 17 is 1942 and year 20 is 1945. Month numbers are the same as western versions so my interpretation is that he was in Group 10 by January 1945 and released into Allied hands on 12th September 1945.

    If you go to the National Archives website through the following link you will find information about records of PW's of the Japanese and a further link to a Dutch Government archive website which will help you interpret the IJA card you posted: see

    British prisoners of the Second World War and the Korean War - The National Archives

    It looks like your grandfather was captured at Singapore on 15th February 1942 and probably marched to Changi camp Singapore by 17th February, since almost all the PWs were ordered to assemble there. He moved to Havelock Road camp, Singapore, ( unless he went there first ) and stayed there from March to October 1942. He would have been put to work clearing something up.

    Someone on the forum will have a copy of the file on the RASC kept by the Bureau of Record and Enquiry which was an organisation run in Changi by allied pws largely in secret. The file on the 18th Division RASC will be in file series WO361/2137 and is one of the original records opened to the public in April 2011.

    The file may tell you which train your grandfather travelled on from Singapore railway station ( some 15 miles or so from Changi ) to Banpong in Thailand. The journey took five days and was extremely uncomfortable.

    By November 1942 he was 172 kilos north of Banpong at Kinsayok, which means he marched there.

    Spellings of names of camps reflect the pronunciation of the name because the liberating forces encouraged PWs to write what they heard, so Kinsiok is how he heard it, Kinsayok is the spelling most used by investigating units in the British army, for example M.I.9, Cas.P/W, Judge Advocate General., etc.Later names tend to reflect the Thai language in English.

    He came back south to Chungkai, a huge camp, by April 1943. That is 59 kilometres north of Banpong.

    He then went to the hospital camp on the other side of Banpong, possibly to build it, at Nakom Paton or Noncompathon as he heard it.

    After that he went to French Indo China, modern day Vietnam, and was in three camps Saigon, Dalat and Lienkhang or Leng Khan.

    Upon being released PWs were asked to complete numerous forms of which you have the first page of one form.

    M.I.9 had five forms, A,B,C, D , and Q.

    You have the front page of M.I.9/A but there may be more in the files at the National Archives.

    Form B is a casualty form which may be in file series WO361.

    Form C is much rarer and refers to "circumstances" or "how did you end up in Vietnam? ?

    Form D is a detailed questionnaire about individual camp locations and I've not seen one but it will be similar to E,Group J.2.

    A Q form deals with atrocities or war crimes.

    Your grandfather filled in a Q form but they are not at the National Archives in a discrete series but can sometimes be found on war crimes investigations files if the Ministry of Defence has released the files, which is very rare for PWs of the Japanese, many more files dealing with European PWs have been released, with more to come. It is not known whether a series of Q forms still exists.

    I know your grandfather completed a Q form which the Judge Advocate General found interesting because we have the index in file series WO356, which is a number of microfilms.

    I attach a photo of the index card which is in file WO356/10 at card 803. This has codes for the camps at Nakom Pathom ( JC94) and Chungkai (JC33). The statement number is E.604.

    Burton, T.F..jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
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  9. Enigma1003

    Enigma1003 Member

    The only extras I can add to Papiermache's is that he departed Singapore on 09.10.1942 as part of 'D Force'.

    The Regimental Roll is very feint, but he is also recorded as dying of beri beri at Chunkai in Feb 1944 as reported by Major Knowles.
    This is then crossed out and it states " see Burton A.F." - they had the wrong man.

    Mike
     
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  10. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Mike, thanks for that. Just to say his Q from referred to Nakom Pathom and Chungkai, not Kinsayok ( I've just edited my post.)

    Also to say that the card does not cross-reference to a named Japanese, which is the usual case. It is also less common to find camp codes in WO356. Whenever someone asks for help on a PW on this forum I usually check on my files but the cards can come up with a "Y" code for the M.I.9 form which never refer to a place and virtually never cross-reference to a Japanese or Korean individual by name or nickname. My current feeling is that a Y Code ( about 1500 cards ) refers to a M.I.9 "D" Form and not to atrocities or a Q form as such. If we live until 2045 we may find the MOD releasing a ton of information about Japanese PWs and camps so I'll have to look after myself a bit better !

    John
     
  11. Jack Burton

    Jack Burton Member

    Firstly can I just thank you all for taking the time to look into this for me and providing such lengthy and extremely interesting replies.

    I genuinely mean that, I'm slightly taken back by how much effort has been made and how quickly this forum sprang into action following my initial post!

    Basically to cut a long story short he never spoke about anything that happened. I know something pretty terrible happened as upon returning from war he was told he would never have another child and many other health related warnings, however 4 years later out came my dad and the rest is history as they say. He made it past 70 years of age so overall not a bad innings all things considered.

    Apparently somewhere there's a folder of all his letters and records etc which never made it either from him or to him. This is with family somewhere I'll track it down over the next few weeks and post any parts which may be interesting. I'll also see what I can do about tracking down this q form.

    Thanks once again for all your help. Papier-mâché/ John you're an absolute gentleman. Thank you very much.
     
  12. TijgerB

    TijgerB Member

    If you got problems translating any Japanese try to write your local Japanese Embassy. I have written the one in Copenhagen twice and both times I got a polite answer with a translation of my few lines.
     
  13. Jack Burton

    Jack Burton Member

    Thanks for tip- I work with a Korean chap who speaks Japanese.. I know what he will be doing on Monday!
     
  14. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Jack, thanks for the bouquet, and good luck with your research. My uncle was captured at Singapore and was sent to Banpong in late June 1942. He returned to Singapore in May 1944, embarked on an ancient worn-out vessel called the Hofuku Maru on or about 4th July 1944 and probably never stepped ashore during the halting journey before he was killed or drowned when the ship was sunk on 21st September 1944 after an attack by U.S. planes from a carrier force in Manilla Bay, Philippines. My research has centred around the information provided by a minor war crimes trial held at a British Military Tribunal in 1947 which dealt with the dreadful conditions on board. About one hundred men died on board before the sinking.

    In terms of personal details of my uncle Commonwealth War Graves records gave the date of death but not the location, so I had these by 2009. Thanks to the brilliant search engine "Trove", the Australian Government funded digitisation of newspapers etc., I found a brief mention of the trial and managed to find the papers in WO235 at the National Archives. War Crimes Trials can provide all sorts of information for family researchers, including typed copies of Q forms. I transcribed the proceedings and posted them here.

    Q forms tend to be very brief and to the point. The Judge Advocate General would obtain an affidavit from the witness for use in minor war crimes trials either themselves following an interview with the Q form author at their offices just to the south of Trafalgar Square in Spring Gardens, Westminster or send a police officer to the witness's home.

    Evidence by affidavit or bare "Q" form, if witnessed by an officer, was allowed under the relaxed rules of evidence used by war crimes tribunals, whether British or Australian, although each country had slightly different rules.

    In 2008 the National Archives released the M.I.9 A forms, or liberation questionnaires. In 2011 the WO361 series expanded. This provided my uncle's date of travel to Thailand, and further files on the Hofuku Maru from "Cas.Pw" or Casualty Prisoner of War/ Missing Men.

    In 2015 Thailand and Singapore POW hospital records ( kept by Allied medical staff, the heroes of this dreadful saga ) were released by Kew in series WO347.Late last year I looked for my uncle and found details of illnesses and where he was treated: Chungkai and Kanchanaburi on the railway.

    So it takes a few years to discover, from 2009 to 2016, although I did, almost by chance, talk to a survivor of the Hofuku Maru in the mid 1980's.

    Good Hunting,

    John
     
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