Licensing, copyrights, etc.

Discussion in 'Modelling' started by Za Rodinu, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    A very interesting aircraft

    Excellent point you have raised,never thought about the copyright on modelling


    http://www.bobsairdoc.com/
    regards
    Clive
     
  2. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    So it's going to be a long wait from 1919 to 1945 ;) But now seriously, if I make say a P-51, provided I advertise it as "not for sale in the US" I'll be safe, right?

    If so, I can openly export the entire range (Germans, Russians, Italians, etc) to the US except models designed by American firms. It will be a disappointemt to many people, but whay can I do?

    Thank you very much again, Martijn, the level of your help was totally unexpected.
     
  3. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Bob Banka! I bought a number of his photosets in the 90s, that is B.I. (Before Internet :D )

    Airmodel scale competition rules require proof that your model follows an actual prototype, and the way to prove it was through photo evidence. So Bob got rich by selling photos to enthusiasts. I think I still have a few from back then. At the time payment was by credit card on a fax. Before that... well there weren't any credit cards but that is another story :)
     
  4. bakker-m

    bakker-m Member

    Yes, I think you will remain on the safe side using a disclaimer like "for copyright reasons models of US designed planes are not for sale in the the US or delivered to customers in the US", both on your website (I suppose you will be advertising on the internet) and on the box in which your products will be delivered.
    It is sad for the US residents, indeed. But on the other hand, it was their own legislator that gave this long term protection to their own companies.....
    Of course, you can imagine some smart bloke inventing smuggler's routes - but don't ever attempt to do that yourself, steer clear from any proposed involvement in cover ups, repackaging, etc. Let your US customers be happy with beautiful European stuff that you provide them with and let others take the risk of facing the legal professionals :)
     
  5. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I foresee an extensive increase in traffic from Canada southwards, someday someone will make a film of my life :D

    Ok, seriously now, thank you very much Martijn, message perfectly understood!
     
  6. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Miguel,

    Seriously, if your product is of a Standard as good if not better than those already on the market, People will cross the border to buy it.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  7. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Same or better standard and at a comparable price too! Nor above nor too low as I do not intend to enter in a price war. Just the fair price for the commodity (with a special attention for WW2T members :) )

    I hope the Mods will tolerate this a bit, I am not using the forum to peddle anything to anyone, nor do I have anything to offer for the time being. Later on I'll have a proper website with the usual Paypal, Visa, etc payment links; I will advertise in the appropriate press, etc, etc. All this takes time and costs money, and I have little of both :)
     
  8. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    M

    we will be very interested in your wares
     
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

  10. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  11. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    A Bestseller, no doubt. Chart top for 15 months in a row :D closely followed by

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I'm getting even more confused by the hour. Look at the Diecast industry, for example this shop www.trainsandplanes.co.uk

    Looking at the website my attention was immediately called to their very clear and interesting Terms and Conditions. As for international shipping, no restrictions by country at all, and their catalogue counts dozens of US subjects. None of the websites I looked up raised the issue. Will I be hobbling myself?
     
  13. bakker-m

    bakker-m Member

    Of course, as always with copyright and other types of legal protection, it all depends on whether the rightholders think it worthwhile to send their legal sharks out. Sometimes you'll have bad luck, as was referred to in some of the earlier posts in this thread. And sometimes the companies don't bother, or even are happy that their designs are famous in the modellers' world since that may add to their reputation. You never can tell.
    So far, in Europe it was Ferrari (for their Formula 1 stuff) and Opel that made it to the European Court of Justice to keep scale models of thier recent and world famous product from the market, and there it was decided that copyright does apply to the original, real thing and also to scale models. Besides copyright, trademark issues played a role, too (the miniature use of the Ferrari horse and other Formula 1 sponsor logos).
     
    CL1 likes this.
  14. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Now that you mention it , this weekend I was talking to a car diecast collector - who pointed me out that and other places I mentioned above - and he specifically mentioned Ferrari. The story is that Ferrari do license their models but under their strict control which means that it is a punctilious and expensive process, but once you've got their permission to use the "cavallino rampante" in model terms it is the equivalent of Guide Michelin awarding you three stars! Your prestige goes through the roof! Ditto for your billing.

    I don't know if this still applies, but in the past in order be allowed to purchase your first Ferrari (in the real) you had to provide proof to the Commendatore that you could more than afford to maintain it, one of the minimum conditions being possessing a temperature-controlled garage!

    He also told me that what the fly-by-nights do is to make Ferrari models, yes, but without the back seat or some other more or less obvious modification so it is no longer a true likeness. And of course the appropriate replacement parts are on catalogue as separate items. Now this is cynical!

    In the US it appears racing teams also have tight control on the modelling industry, if you want to sell your NASCAR miniature there will be a charge to pay.

    As for the scope I'm what concerned with, I do see all kinds of bigger and smaller manufacturers doing all manner of Mustangs, Bostons, B-29s, F-4s, etc, etc, and I can't believe the'll all pay dues to all and sundry that for instance made the Curtiss R3 that Jimmy Doolittle used to win the Pulitzer race in 1929 or whatever it was... There is in "my" 1:30 scale model of the B-25 that said Jimmy D. used on his famous Tokyo Raid, it sells for some 350US$ and till now... nothing.

    In practical terms, what can happen? Do I get a Cease and Desist order for such and such a model? If so then I comply, and cease and desist for that model and drop all those from same origin from my US list. Trouble will be if I ignore and persist!
     
  15. bakker-m

    bakker-m Member

    Gradually this thread begins to develop into a course in Intellectual Property law and risk management ;) . But anyway, of course you could try how far you can go and wait until they'll come with a cease and desist order. Perhaps this will never happen, as they examples you just gave seem to demonstrate. It would be interesting to find out whether the others do pay license fees indeed. The Boeing license example you started with, is rather frightening. Nevertheless, if common practice makes you think that it's worth a try, then why not? Just keep us informed of any upcoming unpleasant noises from across the Atlantic! At least now you know what the European rules of the game are and that you'll be a bit safer here.
     
  16. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Martijn, without any doubts your advice is the most prudent course to follow. I am not a gambler and risk analysis is a difficult enough exercise when you have data. In this discussion we have no data at all, only a few anecdotes that this firm does that the other does otherwise, so in the end we know there is a risk but how light or how serious is at present impossible to ascertain. All things considered I believe your suggestion is the safest way.

    I wish to thank you very much, and considering the place you are writing from I'll put a Fokker D.XXI on my to-do list. Just please don't tell me they'll want their royalties for it too :biggrin: )

    [​IMG]
     
  17. bakker-m

    bakker-m Member

    You're welcome :) ! Great idea to do the D.XXI, I used to have one 1/72 roundabout 1970, dangling from the ceiling of my room - was it Airfix or perhaps Revell? Can't remember anymore.... It must have been quite an interesting plane at the time, although they were almost annihilated in May 1940.
    Fokker won't bother you, they split up in a score of separate legal entities, some of them still doing maintenance and spares for the surviving Fokkers (they're a tough lot), and others are into aerospace work.
    don't hesitate to call on me for further advice, I'll see what I can do. Trademarks are in my field as well :wink:
     
    Za Rodinu and Smudger Jnr like this.
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Hehe, thanks Martijn, perhaps I'll approach you later as I have no idea of the ins and outs of international trademarking for my own brand but I don't know when yet.

    In a couple of days I'll be travelling to talk to somebody with lots of experience on the international toy soldier trade, and I have an appointment with my 'general practice' lawyer here about the the pros/cons of setting up a full business. One thing is having loose private order arriving in my website from private customers, but if I get orders from businesses that will be a different level in formality.

    As for the D.XXI, Frog used to have a pretty one back then, my brother still has his. At 11m wingspan it's not that big at 1:30, I'm sure you'll find shelf space for one - or another bit of string to hang it from your ceiling :)

    Has anyone ever heard me saying how I love WW2T? :)
     
  19. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Holy fooking crap! The D.XXI fuselage is fabric covered in the rear except where it isn't, the Battle is clinker built like a Viking ship and has more roundhead rivets than an Airfix Lancaster! But at the least the D.XXI and the Lysander share the engine (sort of) but the Liz is such a crazy airplane that I won't even look at it so soon!

    How the heck am I going to become a Captain of the Industry I have no idea :biggrin:
     
  20. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I've been buying some tools like a new Dremel and drill press, a cutting plotter, and am expecting a Proxxon hot wire cutting table next week. The new tools have made my productivity go through the roof already!

    I've been talking to a very experienced dealer in the toy soldier trade and he has given me some very good advice, such as why sell a few bits here and there through the net instead of contacting the big professional buyers? That way my business can go global. Sure I'll earn a lot less per item but on the whole the earnings will be much bigger due to the much increased volume. So I'd be better off if get say 60% of something that 100% of peanuts!

    Also I was advised to forget the obscure subjects. They're pretty but the market won't pick them at least until I have a name, so it will be bread and butter for the time being :)

    And don't stay home, pick up a few boxes and go to fairs, go to fairs, go to fairs! Which means Za Rodinu Miniatures (no, that's not catchy, it will be something much nicer) will be in the UK sometime sooner than later. By the way, I'm already going ahead with firm registration but a EU wide trademark costs around 900€. A lot of money now, but it will have to be done sometime too.

    Next month may well see the first pre-production shots!
     

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