Hi, A bit more on the LCP(SY) in 712 Flotilla below. The book had the following about the allocation of the craft in 712 Flotilla. 3 to Sword, 3 to Juno and 2 to Gold. Regards Danny
Well done Danny. I had not imagined that the LCP(Sy) from other beaches could arrive at Sword so early. Can we guess that the British LCP(L) Smoke on US beached were in fact DD leaders? Now I know what to look for I can see smoke generators of various kinds on many craft. None on LCP(L) though. I have posted the following before but it is worth repeating here. Hydrographic Signs. Wrecks, shoals or obstructions were marked with a buoy made of cross planks with a five foot wooden upright. The upright was painted in one foot green and white bands and flew a square green flag. At night a green light was shown. All landing craft were fitted with a buoy which automatically floated above a craft if it should sink. Wrecked landing craft which were uncovered by the tide were marked by the Beach Party by a fifteen foot pole painted with one foot green and white bands and flying a green flag. A green light was shown at night. If required channels were marked by cross plank buoys with a five foot upright. Port hand buoys had a black pennant and a white light. Starboard hand buoys had a red and yellow diagonal square flag and a red light. Survey Craft and teams displayed signs when working. On shore yellow poles with a yellow burgee were used. Afloat a cross plank buoy with a yellow burgee was used. Are these the signs mentioned above as being carried by the DD leaders? Not sure how they would work at sea. Transit beacons. Transit beacons to guide craft were five foot sided equilateral triangles. These were placed one behind the other with the rear beacon apex down and the front beacon apex up. When the two were lined up the craft were on course for the correct beach. Mike.
Fascinating thread. I'm amazed at the level of detailed planning involved. Well done to all involved in this thread and to those who did the original planning!
Annexe IX "Special Signals" to Appendix E "Communication Orders" to ONEAST/J.2 "Force J Naval Operation Order" specifies that LCP(SY) on special duty must fly "A Yellow triangular flag with a blue border, with the word "SURVEY" written in blue on it.": LCP(SY) 177 in the photo posted by Mike in his starting post shows such a flag, as well as some of the other accessories as listed by Mike above: I wonder what the other "things" visible on the photo might be? Michel
Michel, I am on more familiar ground here. Cross plank buoys are shown in Post 21 and image 7 of post 32. They are more substantial than the pole in the survey craft photo. That is a red and white striped pole fairly common on small craft, ships boats and military bridging and rafts. It can be used for fending off, punting or measuring depth of water. The box on the mast with survey pennant is a VHF radio aerial base. I was not sure if the other object is on the LCP or the craft to which it is moored. Mike.
Here is a picture of the transit beacon triangle in use on shore. They have lights which should be lined up in the same way at night. There was also a problem of winds, currents and long shore drift which would drive DD tanks and small craft off course. It would not be sufficient to steer a compass course. A correction would have to be made for the above factors without the means of predicting or measuring them. This would need a craft following to check if the DD leaders were in fact heading the right way. I suppose the 'triangular navigation markers mounted aft' both identified the leaders and enabled a navigation check to be made. Michel quotes 'It is hoped that some of these craft will carry an additional officer who is to some extent familiar with the particular beach that his craft is approaching'. Does this refer to COPP officers who could not be referred to since they did not officially exist? Were there COPP officers on other beaches? Mike
This is most likely, as the Naval Orders (page 500) ON22 "GLOSSARY OF TERMS" - Section B "Terms & Definitions" say: "Combined Operations Pilotage Party (C.O.P.P.) Primary role is reconnaissance. In an assault it may be embarked in an L.C.P.(L) and lead in D.D. tanks from their launching positions to the beaches." COPP officers were also guiding other craft, as witnessed by Lambton Burn in the leading LCT(AVRE) - LCT 947 (LTIN 109) ("Down Ramps! Saga of the Eigth Armada" page 213): "A lone figure slips into the water. It is Captain Mackenzie, R.M., of Combined Ops Pilotage Parties, one of the 250 intrepid volunteers who reconnoitred the beaches in canoes launched by night-bound submarines, and who has now guided us unerringly." Here's a photo of Captain I.C.C. MACKENZIE, together with Lieutenant Commander D.W. AMER, Lieutenant G.D.W. SLATER and Sub Lieutenant J.J. WATSON in Normandy, taken from Peter Palmer's memoirs on coppheroes.com (note the "Achtung Minen !" sign between Slater & Watson): http://www.coppheroes.org/documents/palmer-p-servicememoirs.pdf Note that Captain Ian Christopher Clutha MACKENZIE (109400) was actually a Royal Engineer, who started as a 2nd Lt in the Royal Artillery, rather than a Royal Marine as written by Lambton Burn. See COPP nominal roll as at 1 Apr 44 here: http://www.coppheroes.org/documents/nominalrollcoppdepotapril1944.pdf Michel
A bit of a tangent, but can I ask you guys where you located the ONEAST documents? Some of the details you are showing may be of interest as part of my Juno research. I have seen reference to them at the US Army Mil. Hist. Institute, but if anyone has found them at Kew, that might be easier for me to access.
The SHAEF copy of ONEAST etc. orders is available online (with an All Access subscription) on fold3, but this is missing a few parts, such as JOI 32 (orders for LCT(DD) at JUNO) which were distributed to Assault Group Commanders only: http://www.fold3.com/browse.php#251|hsEUS91acDMF1ucDxM5pqmiBsHv6pMvpe The various Orders compiled in the fold3 documents correspond to several distinct entries at the National Archives, with among others re: Force J: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?uri=C4121920 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C4194976 Are you looking for a specific subject? Michel
Thanks for the leads. I am trying to connect ship serials in the Juno landing tables to actual vessel names for at least major vessels. I have data for the LSIs that I would like to confirm, and to see where else this might lead. The attachment to Arty's post 47 is particularly intriguing in that regard.
Kevin, I think this is possible for Juno. As this is straying from the topic somewhat, and I hope to find out more, I have started a new thread 'Juno Shipping', starting with 'Nan Green and Regina Rifles'. Mike
Attached is a photo showing LCP(L) 166 and 187 (probably, but could be 186 or 188 though) of 702 LCP(L) Flotilla (Smoker Layers). A cross plank buoy is visible, a well as a dark 'box' aft of both craft. Would that be the "Flame and Glare Baffle" as mentioned by Danny in his post #32 above? No smoke generating apparatus is obvious here. Perhaps they were floats or Type 24 generators which had already been used or discarded. See Force J Operational Instruction JOI 73 "Use of Smoke against Air Attack": "FORCES AVAILABLE. 2. (i) 3 Flotillas of L.C.P.(L). (ii) All ships and craft equipped with C.S.A. apparatus, Mark VI smoke floats, or Army Type 24 generators. (...) METHOD OF SCREENING BY L.C.P.(L). (...) 6. (...) (3) All craft start by using C.S.A. and by igniting Type 24 generator, switching off the C.S.A. when the generator is developing full volume. A fresh generator is to be ignited approximately every 15 minutes. (4) When ordered to "Cease Making Smoke", all craft throw the generators overboard and return to stand-by positions." Note: the 3 Flotillas mentioned are 702, 703 & 705 LCP(L) Flotillas Michel
Gents, Apologies for reopening this can of worms, but I thought I'd share an extract from the History of the Combined Operations Organisation 1940-1945:
I'm taking the opportunity of Stephen's posting a beautiful colour frame of LCP(Sy) 177 to bump this great thread. See Colour Footage of Operation Neptune Since the last post back in 2016 above, a number of IWM films and photos have become available online, and LCP(Sy) 177 is in several of them. The first photo, in the opening post by Trux is IWM A24068 by Lt Pelman: © IWM (A 24068) IWM Non Commercial License Lieutenant Pelman was accompanied by a cine-cameraman who shot the colour film from which the following frames are extracted (IWM ADM 1234A Reel 2 from 01:38): Of note are the sounding/marking poles in various colours, and the blue band at the top of the tarpaulin on the side of the cabin, most probably painted there to comply with the requirement that all craft of Force G should have one such blue band painted around the top of their wheelhouse. The 'Survey' pennant does not quite comply with the regulations though, since we have seen that the word 'Survey' as well as the border should be blue, whereas they certainly look black to me. LCP(Sy) 177 also appears (less its colours) on ADM 1275 from 06:17: and ADM 1977 (from 09:48): The IWM caption of A24068 gives "Lt Glenn RN" as commander of LCP(Sy) 177. This would be Lt N. C. Glen RN as per this apparently excellent source: Stealthily by Night - COPP (Combined Operations Pilotage Parties) The Navy List gives Lieutenant Nisbet Cunningham Glen RN (seniority 16 May 1941). I suppose that this book might give us the answers to the various still unresolved questions in this thread. One more book to get! Michel
Thanks to all contributors here, to a marvellous thread that has helped fill in some of my late father's movements on D-Day. An Australian sub- and later temporary-lieutenant (RANVR), he served with the 712th LCP (SY) [Survey] Flotilla, based at Warsash, Hampshire. My interest has been rekindled with the recent death (February 2020) of his shipmate, S/Lt. Leonard Kenneth (Ken) Scott (RNVR). Hence discovery of your conversations. Ken - I think the last survivor of that unit - reached 98 years, and had compiled a comprehensive history of their shore base, 'HMS Tormentor 1940-1946, A Brief History'. Using that book, and to confirm, the bareheaded officer on LCP (SY) 177 is Lt. N.C. Glen RN, assistant survey officer with the flotilla. His senior officer in charge was Lt. Frank M. Berncastle, RN, a renowned hydrographer in the D-Day planning and developer of a key sounding method of the sea bed. Berncastle and Glen hopped around a bit among the survey craft on operations (becoming, briefly, the OiC as they did so). Glen in your colour and monotone screenhots is on the craft of Sub-Lieutenant Eric Grint (RNVR), the sandy-haired officer wearing a cap. Re your captioned photo for shipboard equipment, a fuller caption is in the book. This confirms that the LCP (L) shown has been converted to a survey craft and carries additional equipment to determine beach gradients. "This included QH, echo-sounding gear. taut-wire measuring gear, gear for marking wrecks. This picture was taken after D-Day and shows Lt. Glen RN and two of the crew." On D-Day, thanks to your contributors, I can confirm Ken Scott's report that Grint and my father (commanding LCP (SY) 291) were at Gold beach. Following that, Eric Grint was Mentioned in Despatches in the 1945 Queen's Birthday Honours. (Dad - (Ernest) Harold Richards - 'Harry' to the Brits of course - picked up a Mention in April 1944 after their night ops off Normandy. Always good to keep the colonials on board!) I have confirmed from your contributions that LCP (SY) 291, commanded by my father (Ernest) Harold Richards - 'Harry' to the Brits of course - was at Gold beach. The Tormentor book (1991) is out of print but holdings of copies seem to come up in an online search.
What an amazing forum this is! I've started trying to pull together information about COPP (the Combined Operations Pilotage Parties) for a website and I'd been wondering what landing craft Amer, Mackenzie and Wild were on -- and now I know! Now I just need to work out where Slater and Watson were ... Stealthily by Night, a book about COPP, suggests Slater was in a 'normal' LCP(L) and that he encouraged troops to disembark by firing his gun over their heads! (But then the book also suggests 13th/18th Hussars landed on Juno Beach so ...) IWM has an 'oral history' interview with him that I hope to investigate once the current coronavirus situation permits - unfortunately it's not online.
I recently obtained Charts and Surveys in Peace and War (Rear Admiral R.O. Morris, 1995, HMSO). I've so far only had time for a quick flick through, but it includes this photo (as plate 27). Its caption to the photo says: "The QH receiver is visible on the pole carrying the survey flag."
