Langsdorff Of The Graf Spee

Nonsense! This is not an Imperial Eagle , this is the typical eagle with swastika used as symbol in the Nazi area

Oh and something more: the captain was considered a coward by the Nazis; for me and the majority today: he was a heroe by saving the crew!!!

 

(egbert @ Feb 12 2006, 11:09 PM) [post=45718]Nonsense! This is not an Imperial Eagle , this is the typical eagle with swastika used as symbol in the Nazi area

Oh and something more: the captain was considered a coward by the Nazis; for me and the majority today: he was a heroe by saving the crew!!!
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Egbert

About the Eagle - I accept that you are right, I thought about it after I posted that and realised it was probably the Nazi eagle.

As for Langsdorff being a hero, its impossible to get into a man's mind especially after all this time, but the hero theory is certainly what I would like to believe and I argue in my previous posts that it makes sense.

As to my other point - the Graf Spee and its sisters were planned and almost completed before the Nazis came to power. But in fact even the Versailles treaty allowed Germany to have some armaments, and the whole point of the 'pocket battleships' was that the were a way of getting the maximum firepower into the permitted displacement.

Adrian

 

Another add on: L. was lying on the Reichskriegsflagge. The Reichskriegsflagge until 1919 was different than the one from until 1945. The latter depicted a swastika.
The version he was lying on was the original Reichskriegsflagge from his very own ship he commanded.

For those of you who can read German here is his last letter to the ambassador (scroll down to L.s vitae). Still today the few still living crew and the German people show great respect towards L. As you can read he took the sole responsibility and thus saved the lifes of many German and British sailors (against Hitlers orders):

http://www.marinekameradschaft-muenchen.de/spee.htm

 

(egbert @ Feb 13 2006, 12:07 PM) [post=45728]Another add on: L. was lying on the Reichskriegsflagge. The Reichskriegsflagge until 1919 was different than the one from until 1945. The latter depicted a swastika.
The version he was lying on was the original Reichskriegsflagge from his very own ship he commanded.

For those of you who can read German here is his last letter to the ambassador (scroll down to L.s vitae). Still today the few still living crew and the German people show great respect towards L. As you can read he took the sole responsibility and thus saved the lifes of many German and British sailors (against Hitlers orders):

http://www.marinekameradschaft-muenchen.de/spee.htm
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Hi Egbert,

Are you saying that the flag I put in post #13 is incorrect?

Regards

Geoff

 

(egbert @ Feb 12 2006, 06:09 PM) [post=45718]Nonsense! This is not an Imperial Eagle , this is the typical eagle with swastika used as symbol in the Nazi area

Oh and something more: the captain was considered a coward by the Nazis; for me and the majority today: he was a heroe by saving the crew!!!
[/b]
Keep in mind that Rommel, Von Kluge and Paulus were considered cowards by Hitler for allowing their men to survive in hopeless situations and surrendering. Any man that makes widows and orphans for the "honor" of not surrendering when it is pointless to continue, is merely full of pride, not honor. In fact he has no honor. A man of honor sacrifices his own life, not someone else's.

 

Was Langsdorf a hero? Yes. It took a hell of a lot of guts to stand up to the Nazi high command and save your men in the face of their desires and demands. Langsdorf was real man and a true sailor. I think that's the highest honour that can be bestowed upon him.

 

Geoff, I fear you have depicted the Reichskriegsflagge in Imperial use until 1919. According to the sources he was lying on the official Reichskriegsflagge from his own ship. That is the Reichskriegsflagge type until 1945 (w/swastika). If you google a bit using "Reichskriegsflagge" you'll see the difference.

 

I believe the true reasons for the decision to scuttle the Graf Spee has been obscured by a lack of information.

1. By all accounts, the Graf Spee 280MM guns had, at most, thirty rounds remaining for each rifle. One source estimated @220 total shells remaining out of @ 720 which could be carried - 360 per turret. The source of the estimate of remaining shells is not known.. The Graf Spee carried three types of shells (armor piercing and two different high explosive shells) and separate propellant charges. I have been unable to find the allocation of the shells between those types, either at the inception of her voyage or after the Battle. Non-armor piercing shells would have been of little use against armored warships. No accurate information has been found with the exact remaining makeup of the Graf Spee's magazines after the battle. The composition of those rounds and the ability of the Graf Spee to fight armored warships after the Battle is unknown. Contemporary reports indicate that the magazines had insufficient remaining ordinance to scuttle the ship, requiring the use of torpedo warheads. Based on that, the magazines were nearly empty. By all indications, the Graf Spee was perilously close to being out of appropriate ammunition to fight a naval battle even with its three existing opponents;

2. The Graf Spee engines had been giving difficulty and could not deliver near their specified horsepower or speed, rendering her ability to transit the distance to Germany in substantial doubt;

3. No submarine support could be expected since even the type VIIC U-Boat had insufficient range to support an attempt to return to Germany (remember he U-boat fleet was very small and needed to transit around the UK in 1939). This was pointed out in earlier comments below;

4. The Graf Spee would need to transit @7000 miles of hostile ocean while being followed by British cruisers who would have easily directed UK Battle Cruisers or Battleships with between 14 to 16 inch riles to engage the 11 inch guns of the Graf Spee (with nearly empty magazines);

5. The Graf Spee's speed had been reduced by bottom fouling, rendering her vulnerable to slower, larger and more heavily armored and armed adversaries;

6. The Graf Spee had sustained considerable battle damage since her "armor" was very light and hits in the superstructure had done considerable damage (despite UK naval officer wartime comments that the Graf Spee seemed uninjured). If faced with either a UK Battle Cruiser or Battleship, the Graf Spee was doomed to a fiery death on the open seas. Note that @95% of the crew of the Bismarck that endured such a fate perished. Any commander has a responsibility to his men. Langsdorff honored his;

7. Langsdorff had no hope of resupply or reinforcement.

Other than a desire to die a senseless, "glorious" (stupid) death, what responsible commander would expose his men to near certain death with no hope of success?

While we will never know why he committed suicide, his decision to scuttle his craft rather than sacrifice his men in a hopeless mission showed him to be a logical, honorable commander of men.