Greetings, All! As the thread title suggests, I am getting the ball rolling toward placing a marble/stone memorial at the crash site of Lancaster PA411, in which my Great Uncle, Sgt A/G William Allen Love perished, December 1948. Once I've made enquiries with the local council covering that hill for any required planning permissions, etc., I'll get some design details sorted and costed for a plinth (like the type set over ashes burials, flat on the ground, but in this instance, bonded to a large rock on site), and probably set up a small crowd-funding appeal to cover it. By pure chance, a close friend of my Gt Uncle has recently got in touch with me via my Facebook Group (RAF Bomber Command) - Norman Appleton became close friends with Allen (my Uncle's preferred name) in the year running up to this tragic accident, and was on the same conversion course (from Lancs to the Lincoln), and was actually supposed to be in the Tail-Turret on that trip, by invitation from Allen, but Norman was confined to his bunk, ill, and declined to go. Allen deferred from Mid-Upper turret to the Tail Turret, Norman told me, and so, Norman lived to eventually enlighten me on what has proven to be quite an eye-opening family mystery (I didn't even know Allen was married, for one thing!); naturally, he's a keen supporter of a memorial. My question here, though, is how to begin trying to trace any surviving descendants or relatives of the other crew members (all 7 died in the training flight crash) - so if anyone here has any guidance or ideas on how we might achieve such a search, we'd very much appreciate some input, please. The intention is to try to gather these relatives at the spot, to carry out a proper dedication service, if possible. The crew list is as follows: Flight Sergeant Jack Sherwood Thompson, Pilot Flight Lieutenant Thomas I. Johnson, Pilot Instructor Flight Sergeant Vincent Graham, Flight Engineer Flight Sergeant David W. H. Harris, Engineer Instructor Flight Lieutenant Peter M. Maskell, Navigator Flight Sergeant Robert Smith, Signaller Sergeant William A. Love, Air Gunner Any ideas on the tracing process? Thanks in advance, Barry L.
Accident Avro Lancaster Mk BVII FE PA411, 21 Dec 1948 Date: 21-DEC-1948 Time: 00:05 local Type: Avro Lancaster Mk BVII FE Owner/operator: RAF 230 OCU Registration: PA411 C/n / msn: Fatalities: Fatalities: 7 / Occupants: 7 Other fatalities: 0 Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair) Location: Tintwistle Knarr, 3 km from Tintwistle, Derbyshire - United Kingdom Phase: En route Nature: Military Departure airport: RAF Lindholme Destination airport: RAF Lindholme Narrative: Whilst on a night training flight, passed low over the village of Tintwistle before crashing into Tintwistle Knarr. Report considered loss of position/orientation due to low heavy cloud to be contributing factor. All seven crew members were lost: Jack Sherwood Thompson Flight Sergeant Pilot Killed Peter Maurice Maskell Flight Lieutenant Navigator Killed Robert Smith Flight Sergeant Signaller Killed Vincent Graham Flight Sergeant Flight Engineer Killed William Allen Love Sergeant Signaller Killed Thomas Iowerth Johnson Flight Lieutenant Instructor Killed David William Henry Harris Flight Sergeant Instructor Killed One of the crewmen had survived the crash and was found alive by the first local residents to reach the crash site but he died shortly afterwards. The Lancaster came down close to the crash sites of P-38J 42-67207 (crashed 10 May 1944) and 3 RAF Hurricanes (PZ851, PZ854 and PZ765, which collided and crashed on 22 Feb 1945) To save members some time then perhaps showing details of those who died and any relations at the time, photos of headstones that provide birth details, marriage information, childrens names etc etc TD
OK, TD has started the ball rolling for you with Names of those onboard. The 70th anniversary will be December 21st this year, does that give you enough time for a Memorial? Have you thought of involving the RAF/Air Cadets for some involvement? I'd expect there to be some newspaper coverage of the crash, have you looked for anything? Reportedly this was a Mk I converted to Far East standard, which might mean it had had an stressful wartime life. There are people who may be able to trace its prior service, even though that's not particularly relevant, it may have been quite a tired aircraft (no criticism, purely comment).
Marriages Sep 1944 HARRIS David H W Hunt Durham W. 10a 473 HUNT Eleanor F Harris Durham W. 10a 473 1 son born 1945
Where are we with this?? I have had a quick look and the first 2 names Thompson & Johnson both have family trees on Ancestry, but I am loath to start diving into details if the memorial is not going to go ahead, or perhaps Barry has opened other avenues of investigation/searching for living relatives Private tree: Jack Sherwood Thompson Born: 1925 in Pontefract, Yorkshire West Riding Public tree: Thomas Iorwerth Johnson Birth: 1920 - Wales Death: 21 December 1948 (21 Dec 1948) - Hyde, Cheshire, England F: Albert Evan Johnson M: Ann Rebecca Davies TD
Thanks very much, everyone - very much appreciated! Yes, I do have other folks searching on Ancestry and other websites now, although that has only just begun (I posted this request on various Facebook Groups at the same time as this thread, and also on RAF Commands forum, to both spread the word and to see what information came back from the different approaches. I have every intention of proceeding with the memorial - I now have the contact links for the relevant council/authority for requesting planning permission, as well as contact numbers for Tintwhistle Council (apparently, they keenly support such memorials) - so with luck, we might well get it installed before the 70th Anniversary (sooner the better, or it'll be a tad chilly up on that hill in Winter!). I will also be contacting the RAF & Air Cadets, etc, to see if they might be interested in getting involved in some way... Already, one of my Facebook friends has traced and messaged the owners of three of the family trees on Ancestry, and is looking at the others (he found mine, too, with William Allen Love in it) - amazingly quick returns in less than 24hrs!! Any other suggestions will be very gratefully received - Tally Ho!
Well done and good luck - there is a War Memorials Trust that might be able to provide some funding help, the Council may have someone who arranges funding and/or help, too - ours does.
Hi Barry, Have you made any progress with your venture? I would be happy to help. I was jointly responsible for the erection of a memorial to the crew of RCAF Lancaster KB993 that crashed on Bleaklow in 1945. Kind regards Paul
Hello Barry has not been on the forum since mar 2018 I have sent him a message re your query regards Clive
Hi, all - so very sorry for the over-long delay in responding to this thread - I've been both very busy and ill, so this conversation had to be left on the sidelines until now... I still intend to set up a memorial on top of the hill, on site - just re-initiated contact with Natural England and United Utilities to sort out the permissions, again (United were OK, but Nat' England has the site marked as a "place of special scientific interest", apparently, so I have to push for special licence. Next year (2023) being the 75th anniversary, I hope to have it ready; it will evidently need to be fire-proof, given the wildfires up there in recent years - if anyone had visited the site recently, can you advise what it's like now, please? I have also restarted conversations with my local stonemason - size will cost, obviously - lb-for-£ - as will my ability to carry it up there from the road (unless I can persuade some young ATC to do that - or even persuade the RAF to chopper it up, in memoriam? We'll see - I have some useful contacts, now... ) Let's see how it revives, first..
