Lancaster Crash Site

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Kiwiazza, Oct 1, 2005.

  1. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    Aaron I have to pull out the report of his which is incredibly long. Want to tell you that this will be all in Dr. Theo Boitens book next year covering over 1000 plus pilots of the nachtjagd with bios and victories.

    Will list in order from Freiburg the German pilots and their claims and this will help put things in an order. Really appreciate you making mention of the direction of flight as this is all important to make sense of the activities this evening. Am going to copy and paste that for my files and see if we can get a plot map made up and posted here at some time soon..........

    will be back today

    Erich
     
  2. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    Aaron this is not transcribed in order through the Freiburg Archiv listings

    21.24 Major Lütje Stab./NJG 6 1 Lancaster northwest of Nürnberg
    23.15 Hptm. Friedrich I./NJG 6 1 Lancaster at AT which is very close to Stuttgart
    23.18 Hptm. Friedrich I./NJG 6 1 Lancaster at US 9 which is close to Karlsruhe
    23.21 Hptm. Gaul I./NJG 6 1 Lancster near Pforzheim
    23.24 Hptm. Friedrich I./NJG 6 1 Lancaster at US 9 again (German crew flying a Ju 88G-6)
    22.10 Ofhr. Bunje II./NJG 6 1 Lancaster 10km west of Leuna (German crew flying a Ju 88G-6)
    21.59 Hptm. Becker Stab IV./NJG 6 1 Lancaster near Bad Berka southeast of Erfurt
    21.59 Htpm. Becker Stab IV./NJG 6 1 Lancaster 2km northeast of Apolda
    22.03 Hptm. Becker Stab IV./NJG 6 1 Lancaster over Naumburg
    22.04 Oblt. Daborer IV./NJG 6 1 Lancaster southwest of Leuna
    22.05 Becker again 1 Lancaster 3km south of Naumburg
    22.06 Becker again 1 Lancaster 5km south of Naumburg
    22.15 Becker again 1 Lancaster 10km northeast of Jena (Beckers guns jammed)
    23.00 Becker again 1 Lancaster 8km southwest of Heidenheim (shot down by Karl Johanssen)
    23.15 Becker again 1 Lancaster 3km west of Göppingen (shot down by Karl Johanssen)
    23.37 Becker again 1 Fortress III 5km southeast of Baiersbronn (shot down by Karl Johanssen)
     
  3. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    Karl's reply to the shoot down as part of his report for the long evening.....

    the target was huge as a house. I aimed for the starborad inner engine and wing root. I fired an intial burst that immediately caused the weapon to jam. I cleared the stoppage and gave him a burst of tracer, some of which buried itself in the target. In my headphones I heard, it's on fire !, we had peeled away to starboard and watched the Lancater going down in a steep spiral trailing a long flame. I noted the time, 23h00, and our position as TA4.

    E
     
  4. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor

    Great info as usual Erich.
     
  5. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    Erich,

    WOW. Thats outstanding info, very detailed, thank you very much. I have plotted the position of where Johanssen says they attacked my relatives Lanc, and then plotted that against the actual crash site, the distance between these two points is somewhere in the region of 35-40 kilometers apart. If the speed of the aircraft was say 190 mph or 315 Kph, that means over a 7-8 minute time span it would travel the 35-40 kilometres. That would be about right, it would take a few minutes for the Lanc to descend even if it was in a spiraling dive. Given that this action by Becker and Johanseen was the closest to my relatives Lancs crash site, this must confirm that we have it right. The next closest one is thier 8th kill that night and that is some 90-100 kilometers away. Also given this action took place over open country side where flak would not be present indicates the Lanc was brought down by a night fighter.

    Thanks so much Erich for helping us solve the mystery as to what hapened to my relative. We all are very grateful. If there is any further info you would like from 227 ORB please just let me know, happy to help.

    regards Aaron.
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    Aaron the only thing I would like is a plot of the route of the squadron to and from the target if that is even available.

    much success !!

    Erich ~
     
  7. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    Erich,
    This is the thread I ws referring to in 12 oclck high website a couple of days ago. Hope this jgs your memory.

    regards kiwiazza.
     
  8. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    yes I see that now. Too bad there is not a squadron/bomb group route to and from the target or is there ? this would surely help as RodM has noted. Rod and I go back a little with researching together some of the missions in 1945 and he has made some wonderful map plots of RAF bombers to NJG victories when he doe have time

    Erich ~
     
  9. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    14-15 March 1945.
    Lancaster I RA546 9J-J
    227 squadron.
    Op: Lutzkendorf.

    The aircraft took off at 1703 hrs fron RAF Balderton to attack the Wintetshall synthetic oil plant. May have crashed near Illesheim, 4 km SW from Bad Windsheim. The two airmen who died in the crash and the two who subsequently died from their wounds on 18 March and 8 April respectively, in descending order of crew, are buried in Durnbach War Cemetery. All three Commonwealth air forces were represented in this crew.

    F/L. M L. Hunt RNZAF inj
    WO1 W A. Johnson RCAF +
    F/O. W F. Possee DFC +
    P/O. A T. Harvey RNZAF pow
    F/S. A T. Bell RAAF pow
    F/S. R. Nesbit inj
    F/S. S H H. Jobson pow
    F/S. J W. Harrison pow

    Bomber Command Losses Volume 6 WR Chorley
     
  10. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    this eve was one of the wildest of 1945 with 17 German claims, most by Beckers crew for one eve in NJG 6, the Bordfünker Karl Johanssen receiving the Ritterkreuz for his action this nights operation.

    All kills except one were for NJG 6 crews, the other was I./NJG 5 Hptm Drünkler shooting down an RAF B-17 N.W. of Mayern at 22.46 hrs. Drünkler and his crew were flying a Ju 88G-6.

    2 RAF B-17's lost on March 14/15, 45, the other shot down by Becker/Karl as I noted earlier
     
  11. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Further losses during the Lutzkendorf raid on 14-15 March 1945.

    49 Squadron. Lancaster I RF153 EA-K.
    50 Squadron. Lancaster I NG177 VN-L.
    57 Squadron. Lancaster I NG398 DX-N.
    106 Squadron. Lancaster I LL948 ZN-V.
    207 Squadron. Lancaster I LL902 EM-A.
    207 Squadron. Lancaster I NG399 EM-O.
    227 Squadron. Lancaster I PA214 9J-P.
     
  12. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    189th sq Lanc NX567 shot down by a Ju 88G-6 with Schrägwaffen
    207th squad Lanc NL 399 shot down by Ju 88G-6

    as per Chorley

    The Drünkler claim for a Fortress III was the eve of 16 March so is included in the 15/16 March stats. 214 sq shot down 7 miles Northwest of Mayern. although Chorley mentions the B-17 was hit by US AA later Drünkler and his crew confirmed the kill by them as they watched it crash tha machine covered in flames
     
  13. BORIS

    BORIS Junior Member

    Hi All!
    My first post to this site, i was prompted to after reading this great thread and especialy the last post RE: 189Sqdn NX567.....my uncle Edward Atterby [Air Gunner] was also killed on 14 March 1945 on NX567.
    I have a bit of info collected on him and his crew I will post it up if it would be of interest...........thanks for all the great info recieved!
    Boris
     
  14. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Hi Boris welcome to the site. I expect you have the following info, but just in case.


    14/15 March 1945

    244 Lancaster's and 11 Mosquitoes of No 5 Group attacked the Wintershall synthetic-oil refinery at Lützkendorf. Photographic reconnaissance showed that 'moderate damage' was caused. 18 Lancaster's were lost, 7.4 per cent of the Lancaster force.


    189 Squadron
    Lancaster I NX567 CA-Q
    Op: Lutzkendorf.

    Crew.
    F/O. G J. Austin +
    Sgt. J. McBeth pow
    F/S. T G Storey pow
    F/S. J W. Purdy pow
    F/S. C T. Hall +
    F/S. E. Atterby +
    F/S. W R. Clydesdale pow

    The aircraft took off from Fulbeck at 1709 hrs to bomb the Wintershall synthetic oil plant. Those who lost their lives are buried in Durnbach War Cemetery.

    BCL WR Chorley
     
  15. BORIS

    BORIS Junior Member

    Hi Peter and thanks,
    I do have details of his 'ops' including this his last......but did not realise the huge scale of the whole thing!
    This site is great, really enjoying picking my way through it!

    BORIS
     
  16. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    Hi all,

    Well, I would like to revisit this thread as being the original enquirer to try and establish once and for all what happened to my relatives Lancaster and who shot it down.

    Firstly the Bomber command war diaries are incorrect when it states that 18 Lancasters were shot down on the Lutzkendorf raid being 7.4 % of the Lancaster force. This is incorrect, there were only 8 Lancasters shot down on the Lutzkendorf raid. I suggest a typo error is present in the Bomber Command war diary. The 8 Lancasters shot down were.

    49 Squadron. Lancaster I RF153 EA-K.
    50 Squadron. Lancaster I NG177 VN-L.
    57 Squadron. Lancaster I NG398 DX-N.
    106 Squadron. Lancaster I LL948 ZN-V.
    207 Squadron. Lancaster I NG399 EM-O.
    227 Squadron. Lancaster I PA214 9J-P.
    189 Squadron Lancaster I NX567 CA-Q
    227 Squadron Lancaster I RA 546 9J-J

    The last aircraft listed above being piloted by my relative Maurice Hunt.
    There was a 9th Lancaster 207 Squadron LL902 EM-A this aircraft had poor visibilty on return to the UK and crashed in the UK due to mist and fog. So although lost it was not shot down over Europe. The above is per Chorleys Bomber Command Loses.

    Further to this there were 2 Mosquitoes ( One shot down by American Anti Flak) and one B-17 RAF Fortress lost on the raid. So a total of 12 aircraft.

    Now, as Erich above has already indicated Martin Becker was attacking the Lancaster force Bombing the Lutzkendorf refinery. Here are the details of Martin Beckers victories on that night.

    49
    15.3.1945
    21:53
    Lancaster
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    SE Erfurt
    50
    15.3.1945
    21:59
    Lancaster
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    Weimar-Naumburg
    51
    15.3.1945
    22:03
    Lancaster
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    Naumburg
    52
    15.3.1945
    22:05
    Lancaster
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    Naumburg
    53
    15.3.1945
    22:06
    Lancaster
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    Naumburg
    54
    15.3.1945
    22:15
    Lancaster
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    Jenna
    55
    15.3.1945
    23:00
    Lancaster
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    NE Schwabisch Hall
    56
    15.3.1945
    23:15
    Lancaster
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    Near Unterschlauersbach
    57
    15.3.1945
    23:37
    B-17
    Stab IV./NJG 6
    Near Crailsheim


    This records his 49th - 57th confirmed victories, all of which took place on the evening of 14th/15th March 1945. The above info is taken from
    http://www.luftwaffe.cz/beckerm.html. Now, its no co -incidence that Becker claimed 8 Lancasters on this raid, I beleive he shot down all of the Lancasters lost on the Lutzkendorf raid. His kills were all confirmed, and the RAF lost 8 Lancs on this raid, its perfectly reason to conclude Becker shot them all down.

    Now Erich has indicated previously that the 55th Kill for Becker was the one that relates to my relatives Lancaster being shot down. As mentioned before, the crash site for my relatives Lancaster was Schussbach, now I note that Beckers 56th Kill was near Unterschlauersbach. Now Unterschlauersbach is a mere 10 Kilometers from Schussbach, surely this must be considered a possibility that this is the kill for when my relatives Lancaster was shot down. I kwo we may never know for usre, but I do know the crash site of the Lanc, therefore the nearest kill to that crash site is most likely the one that claimed it.

    Erich, are you able if at all possible to please provide the report that Becker and Johanssen wrote for the 56th kill ???. That way I will have both scenarios. I would be most grateful for this as would my family.

    In addition to the aircraft I mentioned above, there were 3 Halifaxes lost 14th/15th March all on the Homberg raid.Once again according to Chorleys BCL.

    I trust the above is of interest and it would be great to settle once and for all the burning question of who shot my relatives Lanc down and what action this was.

    Any comments thoughts on the above for discussion to test or strengthen my theory above are most welcome from all.

    Kindest regards
    kiwiazza.
     
  17. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    this eve was one of the wildest of 1945 with 17 German claims, most by Beckers crew for one eve in NJG 6, the Bordfünker Karl Johanssen receiving the Ritterkreuz for his action this nights operation.

    All kills except one were for NJG 6 crews, the other was I./NJG 5 Hptm Drünkler shooting down an RAF B-17 N.W. of Mayern at 22.46 hrs. Drünkler and his crew were flying a Ju 88G-6.

    2 RAF B-17's lost on March 14/15, 45, the other shot down by Becker/Karl as I noted earlier

    Erich,

    Only one B17 Fortress was lost, the other one attacked did infact make it back to England, for a very graphic despcription of how the second B-17 made it back I refer you too the book "Tail end Charlies"written by John Nichol and Tony Rennel publisched by Penguin books, refer to pages 329- 337, an excellent description of how the Bomber made it home......just. Only the pilot John Wynn made it back however as he ordered his crew to jump. Quite a remarkable tale.

    cheers Kiwiazza.
     
  18. BORIS

    BORIS Junior Member

    Hi All,
    I'm really into information overload here!
    Just re-reading through the new threads and trying to piece it all together!
    Here is what i have on my Edward Atterbys 189 Squadron NX567CA-Q
    .....Firstly, from a letter from the Air Ministry after the war to my grandmother explaining the loss of her son...

    ''The search officers' investigations reveal that the aircraft crashed at Lueuzenbronn near Rothenburg approximatly 20 miles north of Crailsheim and that your son and his two comrades who must have been killed instantly were buried by the Germans in the Cemetery at Leuzenbronn''

    ...Secondly, from a letter from my good friend Bill Rust [189 Squadron Historian]
    I have in great detail the turning points they took [mail me if interested] culminating in a crash piont of 49.00N. - 10.00E.

    Right, back to these new threads!
    Cheers again all,
    Boris.
     
  19. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    Hi,

    Would anyone like to comment on my theory of events for the 14/15th march 1945 as posted above ??

    Thanks Kiwiazza.
     
  20. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    Boris,

    As has been established earlier in this thread, your Uncles aircraft was shot down by Ju88G-6 aircraft. I beleive that the JU-88G6 was piloted by Martin Becker, he had 9 confirmmed victories that night and 8 Lancasters were lost on that raid. Can you plese supply me with the turning points and how you traced this to your Uncles crash site.

    regards Kiwiazza.
     

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