Hi Everyone, A relative of mine was shot down over Germany in March of 1945. I have a map refernce of where the aircraft crashed. Map ref is given as U.50 032017, this is in the area of Schussbach, Germany. Near Illesheim. The crash was of, Lancaster RA 546, 9J-J a 227 squadron aircraft. The crash occured on the night of 14th of March 1945. Can anyone please provide a map of the area and pinpiont the crash site for me, if this could be done on a modern day map as well as the original map, that would be great. Also any pointers on where I could go to get further info about the crash. Thanks and best regards, Aaron (Kiwiazza)
Originally posted by Kiwiazza@Sep 30 2005, 11:24 PM Hi Everyone, A relative of mine was shot down over Germany in March of 1945. I have a map refernce of where the aircraft crashed. Map ref is given as U.50 032017, this is in the area of Schussbach, Germany. Near Illesheim. The crash was of, Lancaster RA 546, 9J-J a 227 squadron aircraft. The crash occured on the night of 14th of March 1945. Can anyone please provide a map of the area and pinpiont the crash site for me, if this could be done on a modern day map as well as the original map, that would be great. Also any pointers on where I could go to get further info about the crash. Thanks and best regards, Aaron (Kiwiazza) [post=39570]Quoted post[/post] Illesheim You can zoom in and out. Itis a modern map, so the crash site may will be built up.
Morse, Thats awesume, thanks very much. Am I to assume that the red star indicates the actual crash site??? Great map how you can zoom in so close. Thanks a lot. best regards kiwiazza.
Originally posted by Kiwiazza@Oct 1 2005, 05:32 AM Morse, Thats awesume, thanks very much. Am I to assume that the red star indicates the actual crash site??? Great map how you can zoom in so close. Thanks a lot. best regards kiwiazza. [post=39577]Quoted post[/post] Yes Just click on the area you want and it will zoom in.
friend do you have an account of the cause of the crash of your relative ? 14 March 1945 was a mess in the air with NJG 6 claiming some 16 Lancasters. do you have squadron and code so we can do a further search ?? thanks E ~ Aaron sorry I did not read all of your first posting.....
I think you may find the utility 'Google Earth' useful here. You can install it for free from the Google site. It enables a zoomable satallite picture of the whole world and if you can manage to convert the grid reference you have to a Northings/Eastings co-ordinate you can go right to the spot, zoom in and see what's there now. You can even mark it as a reference for the future. I find it very useful and an amazing tool. I just thought you might find it useful too.
(plant-pilot @ Oct 20 2005, 11:46 AM) [post=40291]I think you may find the utility 'Google Earth' useful here. You can install it for free from the Google site. It enables a zoomable satallite picture of the whole world and if you can manage to convert the grid reference you have to a Northings/Eastings co-ordinate you can go right to the spot, zoom in and see what's there now. You can even mark it as a reference for the future. I find it very useful and an amazing tool. I just thought you might find it useful too. [/b] Google Earth is great, I would recommend it. Although on certain areas the detail is a lot less than on others at high magnitude you can still get an idea of what is there.
Hi, Thanks all for your advice and replies. I will certainly check google earth out. Also, Erich, so far I have not established the cuse of the crash. It would be great to determine whether it was flak or a night fighter bringing them down. I know they were shot down before they reached thier target, which was Lutzkendorf, near Leipzig. Due to where his plane crashed it looks like they may have taken an indirect route to the target to try and confuse the night fighter force of their intended target. Dessert Fox...interested to hear of your posting at Illesheim, was this during the war?? All the best all, and thanks again for your info. regards Aaron.
Aaron it is late in your part of the world but I found your man or I should say the German night fighter crew that shot down your relative...........Hauptmann Martin Becker and his 3 man crew of Stab.IV/NJG 6 flying a Ju 88G-6 coded : 2Z+MF. This particular night had immense significance in the air war over the Reich at night as Martin Becker and his crewmen scored 8 Lancasters and 1 Fortress III confirmed, your relative's Lanc was the German crews 7th this night recorded as shot down at 23.00 hrs in map quadrant TA 4; Illesheim is on the north-east top of the quadrant square. I have more ............ Erich ♪
Erich, Have just read your two posts, amazing info !!!!!!! Thank you so much. The family was never told what really happened so to get this info all these years later is really quite astounding. Thank you so much. I really appreicate you taking the time to reply. Also in answer to your question earlier, Im sorry I dont have a pic of the Lancaster or crew. I do however have a pic of the Lancaster and crew that replaced my relatives 9J-J aircraft. Thanks again Eric and any further info that you may have would be just fabulous, my relative was the pilot of the Lancaster and his name was Maurice Hunt of the RNZAF. Best regards Aaron.
Aaron, the radar operator Karl Ludwig Johanssen used his single MG 131 13mm mg to bring the lancaster down. The pilot could not get the forward firing 2cm weapons to function due to jamming so ordered Karl to use the single rearward firing defence arm. Your relatives Lanc was the first of three heavies Karl brought down with this weapon, the 7-9th kills for the crew that night. your relatives Lanc was hit between the wing root and the inboard engine which set the whole wing and then fuselage on fire as it banked away and crashed. This is a bit graphic I know but it was war. If you would like to post a pic of the replcament a/c then we could get a peek at what the units Lancs looked like so many years ago..... glad to help Erich
Erich, WOW, incredible info, may I ask where did you get this info from??? Its very detailed and for that I just cant thank you enough. The fact that Illeshiem was top North East of the map reference sits well with the facts, Schussbach where the Lanc crashed is SE of Ilesheim, and the aircraft was flying from West to East, so that all fits nicely. FYI 2 members of the crew died when the plane crashed. One of them was a second dickey on his very first op. Two crew members including my relative Hutn were badly injured due to the crash, I presume burned by your description. My relative died 4 days after the crash, and the other injured crew member a ocuple of weeks after that. The four remaining crew members all survived and became POWs. I am attempting to make contact with family members of the surviving crew and will kwwp you up to date with that. Thanks again Erich, you have been wonderful with this info. Kindest regards Aaron.
Hi Erich, Also for those who may be interested, here is a photo of my relative who was shot down that fateful night in March of 1945 by Martin Becker. Regards Aaron.
excellent Aaron, and much success in finding the remaining crewmen alive I hope. Friend, many years I have put together data from friends, researchers, data collected and yes relatives on my mothers side serving in the Luftwaffe, two of them were pilots both killed, 1 of them a night fighter ace in II./NJG 5, Hans Baer. I really do enjoy this type of research which on par takes several years to put two and two together, but the pieces fell into place almost at once when you gave the date and the crash location... E
Hi, Also for those interested here is a pic of the Lanc 9J-J which replaced my relatives. this pic was taken at Strubby in May 1945, the pilot of the crew shown (3rd from left) knew Johnson who was 2nd dickey on my relatives Lanc when shot down. best regards kiwiazza.
Erich, Have come across some more info which may help/hinder us as far as establishing who shot down my relative. I have just come into pocesion of the Operational record book for 227 Sqn. It shows that the squadron was over the target Lutzkendorf just after 2200 hrs and bombed the target at that time. That means when Martin Becker shot down my relative at 2300, that was after the target had being bombed. What I suppose we really need is a route map showing the route taken by the bomber stream to and from the target. Does anyone know where I could find this info, please bear in mind I live in NZ. Thanks to all and any providing info on this. Best regards Kiwiazza.
Aaron that is one of my questions all along, what direction was the flight path into the target and then out of Germany. Becker flew in a northerly direction and S.W. when encountering your relatives Lanc and then he seemed to have flown Northeast again. To the west of your relatives downing were two more Lancasters downed by two different NJG 6 pilots at aclose times to 23.00hrs. I believe the bombers stream was really spread out over many miles
Hi Erich, It appears the target Lutzkendorf was attacked from the North east. Angle of attack from other aircraft in 227 Sqn as described in the ORB range from 10 degrees to 50 degrees, with the average in the low 40s, so this is from the North North east to North East direction. 227 Sqn bombed the target right on 2200, most aircraft coming in within a few minutes after 2200. I came across some info on Martin Becker in the internet that lists his victories in order on the night, according to this info he shot 4 Lancs down over Naumburg. at 21:59 22:03 22:05 22:06. What a busy 7 minutes, 4 Lancs down in 7 minutes, that has to be a record in itself !!! one over Jena at 22:15. Then the Lanc that my relative was flying this position was given as NE of Schwabisch Hall at 23:00, then another 15 minutes later at 23:15 Near Unterschlauersbach. If you plot these positions on a map you can see that the stream was moving in a Southwesterly direction from the target of Lutzkendorf. The crash site of my relatives Lanc, Schussbach is roughly about 120-130 miles South West of Lutzkendorf, lets say the aircraft travelled at 160MPh, thats about right for hours flight time from Lutzkendorf. Erich, in regards to the action in shooting down my relatives Lanc, when you mentioned the fuselage and wing caught fire and the aircraft banked away, did it mention which wing, port or starboard caught fire, also did they mention in thier report did they see any parachutes prior to the crash? Sorry for the lenght of the post, but I thought the more detail the better. Thanks again Erich for al your info on this one. Best regards Aaron.
