Lancashire Fusiliers - Sangro

hi there, I was just doing a general search for My unvle, William Harry Smith, I know very little about him or his death, but apparently he was killed crossing the sangro river by a hand grenade in 1943, Ive scanned thru the lists just, but its easy to miss one huh?

His name is on the wolverhampton roll of honour list and I'll paste the details here

Smith William Harry Fusilier 13021533 2nd Bn. Lancashire Fusiliers Son of W T and Ethel Smith; husband of May Smith, of Wolverhampton. Died - 28 October, 1943. Aged - 28. Memorial - Sangro River War Cemetery, Italy. II. A. 33.

hope someone might be able to help

Oh and, does anyone know if there is anywhere on the web I might find out more about what happenned there? at Sangro?

 

Hi and welcome to the forum,

There's a few members with a fair bit of knowledge about Italy during WW2 so I'm sure someone will be able to help.


Some info you may have already seen:

CWGC :: Casualty Details

CWGC :: Cemetery Details

Without wishing to sound cynical that is a beautiful location with the mountains in the distance:


Goodluck with your search

Andy

 

+True Brit -
you appear to be right inasmuch as there is not a lot to be found on this battle from the British point of view so -

I would refer you to the book -" 78th Div - The Battleaxe Division " by Ken Ford -ISBN - 0 - 7509 - 3199X - The Fusiliers crossed the River Sangro on 21st November and lost seven men there with many more wounded.

In Chapter 10 you will find all you need on that Battle - all I can say about it is that the Lancs had been mauled at Termoli and on the approaches to the Sangro and they took heavy casualties all through that area, as did the Canadians - Kiwi's and Tenth Indian Div.

As you say that he was killed on the 28th October then it is more likely that this was just after Termoli and on the way to the Sangro - possibly crossing the Trigno but buried at the Sangro cemetery - Chapter eight of the book describes these actions it was a desperate time as the monsoons had just started and all the rivers were swollen and very difficult to cross as the enemy was already in his "winter line" and defending as only he could

As Drew has said - it is a beautiful cemetery there as they all are but - those mountains had to be climbed...somehow !

Cheers

 

Some good background info here mate:

Bernhardt Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards
Andy

 

I've found a couple of pictures too showing British and Commonwealth Troops crossing the Sangro River.


Squad of South African troopers from Bechuanaland, along w. group of willing Italian civilians, repair railroad bridge over the Sangro river which was demolished by retreating Germans during the campaign to oust Axis forces from Italy.


Trucks of the British 8th Army crossing Sangro river on a pontoon Bailey bridge during the campaign to drive Axis troops from Italy.

Regards
Andy

 

True brit / Drew
I think that you will find that your uncle died between the Biferno and Trigno rivers that is the Barbara and Bernhardt lines on 28th October.....

One of our members - Niccar - was involved in that battle but I doubt if he will talk about it

Both these lines were merely to slow down progress before the main Gustav and Hitler lines in the Liri Valley -the main Sangro battle was in November and the Moro River and Ortona battles were just before and at Christmas with Cassino starting in earlly January to mid May...
Cheers

 

A fairly detailed account of this action is given on pages 72-75 of 'The History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1939-45' by John Hallam (Alan Sutton 1993 ISBN 0-7509-0409-7). It may be worth getting it for a more general view of your uncles' service as well. I knew one of the officers of 2nd Battalion, Captain Kevin Hill, very well, but he died a few years ago.

 

The Sangro Valley last May:

 

TBM,
Welcome to the forum and good luck on the research.

Regards
Tom

 

wow! I cant believe how many of you have replied!! thank you all so much!, I am so glad to finally have some idea of what... My Uncle did, and where he died.. and now Im that lil bit closer to knowing!, I thought, I remembered my dad say that harry died in tripoli, but I was only about 10 at the time, and now know it was Italy... I was wondering if maybe my uncle had fought before italy... in tripoli? for I did call the lancashire fusiliers museum a year or so back and the man there told me that my uncles service number shows that he didnt begin as a fusilier with the lancs, as it was an infantry service number?... and he said that would have meant he also fought in North Africa (and a few other places that I forget now)
well ive looked on a map and see that tripoli was close... sailing wise, to the area of trigno/sangro etc... do you think he would have fought in tripoli and then sailed straight on from there to italy?

and I know this might seem a dumb question... but I was just wanting to clarify something... Harry was a lancs fusilier 2nd Btn... but also in the 78th Battleaxe division?... im guessing that means many units came under a "division"? and the lancs were part of the make up of the 78th?... sorry, told you it was a dumb question lol

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!

and I have sent a message via here to the member you mentioned was also in the battle my uncle was in, i hope he may know more, maybe even of known my uncle harry!

 

I can't speak about your uncle but most unit in Italy started in Africa so it's fair to say that it would be a natural progression.

If you post his service number on here someone may be able to tell you what unit he started his military career with.

The best thing you could do is identify the NoK and apply for his service records from Glasgow.

Regards
Andy

 

True Brit -
If your uncle was with the 78th Division in the Uk - then he would have travelled to North Africa to land in Algiers after November 1942 - making their way towards Tunis - then around July 10 1943 he would have travelled to Sicily - then on to Italy to fight at the Biferno and Trigno -aroud October 1943 - as you now know - he didn't make it to the Sangro and my best guess is that he died near the station as San Salvo beyond the Trigno - the 78th Division were no where near Tripoli which is now in Lybia - for the other units in the division try googling for "78th Brit Division" all three brigades are listed...

Cheers

 

True Brit -

Now that you know what makes up a Division - if you go back to Owen's #8 posting you will find a map - this relates to probably the first week of november `1943 as the Fusileirs have moved on from San Salvo station- which you will not is on the coast as opposed to the town which is about five mile inland - but then - this is Italy in 1943 !

You will also note that the units of 11th Brigade ( Surreys - Northants and Fusiliers) are leading the attack with support from the 36th Bde (Argylls - West Kents and the Buffs ) - with the Inniskillins from 38th Bde coming in to assist just over the Trigno ..hope this clarifys your thinking a bit more.

Cheers

 

thank you all again soooooooooooo much!, and for putting up w me asking dumb questions LOL, and yes it does clarify it more in my mind... and tho it might sound silly, knowing... makes me feel closer to my uncle(i never knew him, I wasnt hatched till 71 LOL)....I have applied for uncle harrys records, well, Ive contacted them (last thurs) and they are sending out the forms to apply...

but I was thinking...
Maybe, as I now know he did change regiment at least once, could it be that he had been in tripoli as part of another regiment? I remember dad mentioning tripoli so clearly, but alas, I cant remember what, he actually said now... but looking at maps, tripoli was close to where he died, relatively, just across the water...

could it be he was with another unit figting in tripoli and then seconded or something into the lancs? did that happen much? was it a common thing to be moved into other regiments?
at least now, I know for sure, more or less the spot he died...

will his war records give an account of how, he died? or exactly "where" ?