LAA Regiment Batteries

Can anyone explain the logic to British WW2 LAA Regiment Battery numbering. The excellent site RA 1939-45 gives Battery numbers at a certain date. I am interested in 2 particular LAA regiments, 11 and 17 and it gives the Batteries as of 1939 as 31,32,33,43 and 48,49 & 50 respectively. In the 22nd AA Brigade diary for summer 42 during Dryshod exercises in Scotland, the 11th is listed as just 31,32 and 33 and the 17th as 50,96 and 146. I guess that after all this time the answer can only be general but can anyone give an overview of the organisation behind this?

 

Hutt

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My old unit, the 49th LAA Rgt., had 3 Btys, namely the 84th, the 90th and 280 Bty.

I can only guess that originally Bty numbers would have been consecutive but over the years as units were dismantled and then resurrected the numbering system went completely to pot.

I shall watch this thread with interest.

Ron

 

I think the term regiment in this case is confusing. In infantry and cavalry a regiment was a permanent unit. Pre war the term was not used in the artillery. The basic unit was the battery. When larger groupings were needed several batteries were formed into a brigade with a brigade headquarters. In wartime in many cases batteries remained with the same brigade for long periods. Also the terminology changed to regiment.

Mike

 

Ron
I wondered if you might post on this one. Your comments are always valued.
Yes, I wondering along similar lines but even where Batteries are listed in Sep39 the numbers jump around quite a bit.
It will be interesting to see whats posted.

 

Mike & Hutt

Re:I think the term regiment in this case is confusing. In infantry and cavalry a regiment was a permanent unit. Pre war the term was not used in the artillery. The basic unit was the battery. When larger groupings were needed several batteries were formed into a brigade with a brigade headquarters. In wartime in many cases batteries remained with the same brigade for long periods. Also the terminology changed to regiment.
Thanks for your input and I am sure you are correct, but when you say " I think the term regiment in this case is confusing" I , in turn am even further confused

If you look at one of my record sheets shown below you will see that no less than 4 LAA Rgts are in fact described exactly as that, e.g Regts.
(See the 52nd, 112th, 228th and the 49th)

Ron

 

Sorry to cause confusion instead of clearing it up.

My point was rather that there was not necessarily any logic in the numbering of batteries in a regiment, nor need batteries remain with the same regiment.

Until 1938 batteries were self contained and autonomous but could be brigaded in the same way that infantry battalions could be formed into brigades. Any batteries could be brigaded and there would be no logic in their sequence of numbers.

In 1938 batteries lost some of their autonomy to the brigade, which took over much administration. In 1939 it was thought that the term regiment would be less confusing than brigade. Batteries could still be moved from regiment to regiment.

When new LAA units were formed in the late 1930's they were formed as brigades with several batteries and since these batteries were new units they were given numbers in sequence. They did not necessarily remain permanently with the original brigade (later to be called regiment).

Oh dear thats even more confusing. Returning to the beginning, there was not necessarily any logical numbering of batteries.

Mike

 

Mike

Rest easy.... i am now un-confused

Ron

 

There is no logic in the sense that battery numbers are ever related to a specific regiment other than the particular regiment to which they are currently assigned, and many batteries flitted between regiments, some several times.

In your case:
11th LAA was formed with the 4 batteries you list but 43 Bty left in 2/40 to join 101 LAA/AT Regt. In 1941 283 Bty joined on its formation for training and left later that year for 17th LAA and subsequently returned in 1942 before finally leaving to become 1st Air Landing LAA Bty. 11th LAA was selected in 1941 to join Force 110 (later 1st Army) and train for amphibious ops and because of this assignment the regt never had to shed a battery to form the cadre of a new regiment.
17th LAA
Started the war with 48, 49, 50 but 48 left in 1939 for 42nd LAA and in its place the regt got 96 and the new formed 146 Btys.
49 left in 1940 to join 48th LAA.
283 joined in 1941 and left again later that year leaving the Regt. with 50, 96, 146 Btys. Like 11th, 17th LAA was part of Force 110

 

I have read this page a hundred times and still confused
British Artillery Regiments

 

'Brigades' RA (until 1938 when they became regts) were fixed organsiaitonm subject as ever to the exingencies of the service when there was restructuring. In 1929 there were two 'AA Bdes - Home', regular army units in Blackdown and Portsmouth, numbered 1 (1, 2 and 3 btys) and 2 (4,5 and 6 btys). There were also TA AA bdes:- 51 (151, 152 & 153 btys), 52 bde (154, 155 & 156), 53 bde (157, 158 & 159), 54 bde (160, 161 & 162) all in London and 55 bde (163, 164, & 165) forming in Tonbridge. The pattern is very clear.

By 1938 the situation was starting to get nicely confused, they were still called bde:
1 (in Lichfield) 1, 2, 17 btys + 4 Lt bty); 2 (also Lichfield) 4, 5, 6 + 2 Lt); 3 (Singapore) 6 (HK-S), 11; 4 (Egypt) 16, 18, 20 + 3 Light); 5 (HK) 7, 9; 6 (Blackdown) 3, 12, 15 + 1 Light, 7 (Malta) 10, 13; 8 (Independent) bty was in Peshawar, 14 in Ceylon, 19 in Gib. Thus 1 - 20 'HAA' (that term wasn't yet used) and 1-4 LAA. There were also 5 - 8 AA btys of the HK&S artillery.

The TA situation was:
London
51 Bde (151, 152, 153)
52 (154, 155, 156)
53 (157, 158, 159)
54 (160, 161, 162)
60 (168, 169, 194)
61 (170, 171, 195 + 224 Light)
Kent
55 (163, 166, 205)
58 (206, 207, 208)
Falmouth
56 (201, 202, 203, 165)
Portsmouth/Southampton
57 (214, 215, 219, + 213 Light)
72 (217, 218)
Essex
59 (164, 167, 193)
Northumbria
62 (172, 173, 221)
63 (176, 177, 178, 220)
64 (174, 175, 176, 177)
Manchester
65 (181, 182, 183, 196)
Yorkshire
66 (184, 185, 186, 197)
67 (187, 188, 198, 198)
Derby
68 (200, 222)
Birmingham/Wolverhampton
69 (190, 191, 192, 199)
73 (204, 209, 210)
Liverpool
70 (211, 212, 216, + 225 Light)
Dumfermline
71 (227, 228)

223, 226, 409 were independent btys in various places.

What you see here is regiments being progressively formed and expanding, with btys number in regimental order then added btys in order of formation.

LAA was different to most other types of RA regt (survey & maritime were also exceptions) in that the regimental numbering did not have the regular (from 1) and TA (from 51) split they started at 1 went to 150 then went a bit feral. LAA btys also also started at 1 but, like HAA btys underwent some renumbering and some btys seem to have renumbered more than once. Of course the searchlight regts RA introduce a whole new meaning to the word 'confusing'.

 

Thanks for all the replies. I've got quite a bit there to save off and digest. Mapshooters thread begins to mention the TA and I know from my fathers record of service card that he listed as RA for 2.6.37 to 26.1.39 and I assume this to have been in the Territorial Army which he probably joined at White City. He is then listed as RASC 27.1.39 to 5.5.46. I also have a photo taken at Belhus House Aveley, Essex dated May 31 - Dec 15 1940 with an insignia for the Ist AA Division on the front rh wing of a truck. Can anyone sugest a good source of information on the RA/TA in London in the late 30s? RA Archive Woolwich perhaps? I am also going to look up the 1st AA Division at Kew but so far seem to be finding stuff on 1st AA Brigade which I assume would not be the same think? Can someone confirm? Please excuse general ignorance of Army terms. As my father said, he fought in WW2 so my generation would not have to do that again. Sadly we are not quite there yet.

 

You are correct in thinking that AA Divisions and AA Brigades are different. In Air Defence Great Britain, AA Divisions were set up to cover specific areas of the country. These Divs were sub divided into Brigades each containing a number of Regiments, usually a mix of Heavy and Light AA Regts and Searchlight Regts. As the number of AA Divs grew they were grouped together into 3 AA Corps.

1 AA Div was responsible for the London area. For an overview of the AA Divs see here.

 

Firepower is a good place to start.

There are two books which will help and you can read them in the Firepower Library.. 1) Brigadier Routledge's History of the Anti Aircraft Artillery 2) The RA Commemorative Book is the gunners what we did in the war book and has information about the training organization etc.

English Heritage published a book called AA Command which lists all the AA sites. Its EH so they are more interested in the landscape than people.

There is a real challenge to find out which organizations (Regiments/ batteries) manned which batteries (sites) . The AA defences were configured around the targets. The surviving planning documents about the AA defences in the battle of Britain and the Blitz seem to work in terms of numbers of guns of types and weren't that bothered about how the gunners organised themselves.

In a field army unit the deployments will be driven by the structure. e.g. If we have, say, three batteries each of of four troops of four LAA guns to defend a Corps or Divisional area, these will be deployed to protect VPs or an area which will use all the guns available.

When defending the homeland, the targets are pretty well defined and the deployment can be driven by the geography of the target area. e.g. in London there are only so many open spaces and the battery/ Regimental structure may follow the number of guns to be served.

So while every move of the fighter-boys is cataloged down to the names of pilots by sortie, much less attention is given to knowing which artillery unit was where. For example, the AA defences of Liverpool included 15 mobile 3.7"" guns on 19 Feb 1941 but rose to 51 by 23 April after the Germans started serious raids. This will have involved several batteries redeploying, but finding out which isn't that easy from published sources.


When Britain rearmed, it was envisaged that the majority of the new AA needed would be provided by the TA. Other complicating factors about LAA Regimental/Battery structure is that a significant number of LAA units were formed mid war from Searchlight units RE and from infantry battalions re-roled as gunners. ( e.g. 92nd Loyals LAA which defended Pegasus bridge.) From 1944 on wards AA units were being reduced in size or disbanded to order to provide more infantrymen. So there can be little surprise that the battery numbers don;lt follow any sequence!

Oh and some units were organised to serve the same equipment, but actually deployed attached to completely different units. Thus in 1944 one of the LAA units was equipped with 20mm towed and SP guns, but its troops mare scattered across 2nd Army attached to other LAA.

Routedge says that 1st AA Division was responsible for London and 6th AA Division for Kent and Essex - the greater Thames estuary.

 

A.A Command 1942: Eastern, London etc.

Army list



Not found one reference to an LAA Regt in the official army list of Artillery - yet!

 

Just to add a bit of confusion, in 1929 the AA Bdes were organised into 26, 27 & 28 Air Defence Bdes.

By 1938 the regular army AA bdes were in 1st AA Group (Aldershot) and 2nd AA Group (Lichfield) while the TA were in 30 (Sunderland), 31 (Retford), 32 (Derby) & 33 (Chester) AA Groups under 1st AA Division (Uxbridge) and 2 AA Division (RAF Hucknall).

Details of unit addresses and the names of battery commanders and upwards (incl adjutants and staff officers) for 1929 and 1938 can be found in Hughes' 'Between the Wars. 1919-1939' volume of the RA regimental history.

To find what units were deployed where in WW2 you will need to look at the formation (AA corps, division & bde) war diaries which should have a copy of the written Op Orders, the bde orders are probably assigning regiments to areas, regiments would then issue their own orders to batteries, these may have been verbal or written (it's possible bde orders were also verbal). In either case actual locations would have been reported upwards and should be recorded in the HQ war diaries.

 

The 11th was the City of London Yeomanry (Rough Riders) my father was in 33 battery he was a tow driver in left troop, they had 40mm bofors guns until air superiority in Italy then they were changed to heavy mortars.

 

As per my previous post 11th was the City of London Yeomanry RHA, I asked my father the set up of the unit, he said that the 11th was a TA unit and that 31,32 and 33 were each split into 2 troops left and right and each troop had 6 guns. they were deployed to North Africa late 1942 from there they went to Italy. At one point they supplied AA cover for a US airbase in North Africa.
He also said that 43 was the airbourne side of the Regiment and were never with the them.

 

City of London Yeo were not RHA, they were RA. The only TA RHA were the three HAC regts, 104 (Essex Yeo), 106 (Lancs Yeo), 107 (S Notts Hussars). They were all field branch arty not AA.

AA regts were either in the AA Command in UK organised into corps - division, brigade - regiment, LAA regts organic to divisions and corps, and AA brigades, usually 3 regts) assigned to armies and theatres overseas and could be further assigned by those HQs but generally used for AA defence of the Lines of Communication, including ports.

There was some organisational changes in LAA with some regts changing from 3 to 4 batteries. Furthermore batteries of one regt could be placed under command of another for a particular task.

In may be helpful to remember that until 1938 the battery was the 'unit' - not 'sub-unit', hence batteries were grouped into 'brigades' (brigades did not have a QM because the battery was the accounting unit). This is why batteries had and still have unique numbering (or lettering in RHA and ex regular RHA), although in WW1 this was suspended for the new army batteries and in WW2 unique numbering of new batteries was by battery type. When AA btys were formed after WW1 they adopted an 'AA branch' battery numbering regime.

 

To add to the confusion - sorry guys
Dad was in the 3rd LAA Regt early 1940 in Norway. When he came back he was transfered to 208 training regt Watchet Yeovil but I cannot find any info about his service there as part of the 'stop lines' strategy. Next his records say he was transfered to 64 LAA R.A. (T.A.) Regt 191 battery but I cannot find any info from late 1940 - Dec 1941 of where he was except he was part of home forces in the Midlands. Then in 1942 the regiment/battery records surface in the National Archive W0166/7654 when they were attached to 32 AA Brigade and then re-deployed to the 41AA Brigade.

Talk about hopping about. The LAA batteries seem to be a more fluid mobile force.

Anybody got any info on 208 training regiment and what they were up to in Yeovil? I am trying to write a book on dad's service record for the family before I depart this earthly coil
Thanks
Margaret

 

There is a war diary at the National Archives for 191 LAA Battery. It does not cover the entire period you are interested in, and you would have to visit the N/A or get someone to copy it for you.

The Reference is WO166/2923 and covers the period Sept, - Dec 1940 and May to Aug 1941.