Kursk and Prokhorovka

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by vista52, Feb 10, 2009.

  1. L J

    L J Senior Member

    The Kursk campain was a dashing defeat for the German Armed Forces, and it was played exactly according to the Soviet music.

    Prokhorovka was one of the multiple encounters within that campaign, and derives its fame mainly from that awful book 'The Tigers Are Burning' by Martin Caindin. As a matter of fact Prokhorovka happened mainly because SS IInd PzKorps had already found the route to Kursk itself unassailably blocked, and had already veered off course to the right.

    Zitadelle idea was based on a pincer manouvre, but to have a pincer you need two jaws. In this case the Northern Jaw (Model's 9th Armee) had already failed in it's mission, and the Southern jaw was grinding with not really much to show.

    All this set the stage magnificently well for the series of three offensives the Red Army had prepared BEFOREHAND, that is :

    1 - the Mius diverting offensive down south
    2 - Operation Kutuzov by three Fronts against the failed 9th Armee
    3 - Operation Rumyantsev by 2 Fronts against 4th Pz Armee and ArmAbt Kempf

    Outcomes:
    1 - This one diverted a weakened SS IInd PzKorps from 4th Pz Armee, after Prokhorovka, and after haing SS Leibstandarte removed to Italy.
    2 - smashed 9th Armee, recovering Orel and approaching Vyazma.
    3 - reeled back these German forces conquering back Belgorod and Kharkov for the last time, and setting the stage for the recovery of Kiev soon afterwards

    After the Zitadelle fiasco the Germans were no longer able to mount any other coherent offensive at operational level, they lost the initiative entirely.

    Whatever bigger surprises they managed to mount later (Bulge, Lake Balaton) had no momentum behind them, they had shot their bolt already at Zitadelle and lost.

    The Germans were betting on a victory, the Soviets were waging war on a professional manner, ammassing the proper means and learning from experience to change their methods into a winning strategy. The Soviets were getting better and better at it as time went on, while the Germans were learning the wrong lessons and forgetting the right ones.

    Whatever pretty colours you want to paint the Germans with, the end result was this:
    [​IMG]
    Martin Caindin =the Karl May of WW II:D Kursk a dashing defeat for the Germans ? Maybe exagerated . Citadelle was not that important ,even if the Germans had won,the Russians would have started their attacks on Orel,........And Prokhorova : without any importance.
     
  2. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    My apologies, I hadn't realised you alrady knew it all.

    Yes, I now realise Zitadelle was not that important, I'll withdraw anything I said previously.
     
  3. L J

    L J Senior Member

    My apologies, I hadn't realised you alrady knew it all.

    Yes, I now realise Zitadelle was not that important, I'll withdraw anything I said previously.
    No apologies,good points! THE source for Kursk (for those who do no know ;) ) is The Dupuy Institute . Cheers .
     
  4. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Heinz Guderian wrote in his diary:
    With the failure of Zitadelle we have suffered a decisive defeat. The armoured formations, reformed and re-equipped with so much effort, had lost heavily in both men and equipment and would now be unemployable for a long time to come. It was problematical whether they could be rehabilitated in time to defend the Eastern Front... Needless to say the Russians exploited their victory to the full. There were to be no more periods of quiet on the Eastern Front. From now on, the enemy was in undisputed possession of the initiative.



    But what Guderian knew?
     
  5. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I am aware of The Dupuy Institute, thank you so much.
     
  6. the kursk salient was a tough nut for the germans to crack and they instead decided to engage the russians in a huge tank battle instead
     
  7. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    :nospeakhearsee:
     
  8. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    the kursk salient was a tough nut for the germans to crack and they instead decided to engage the russians in a huge tank battle instead
    So if they didnt engage them at Kursk then, exactly where was this tank battle, if not at the Kursk Salient??
     
  9. Tiger AusFe

    Tiger AusFe Junior Member

    I am a bit surprised at the first post on this thread. To say it is slightly biased would be a understatement. The germans Came very close to winning at Kursk, the late deployment of the 24th panzer division saved the Russians. The Clash at Prokhorovka was a humiliating defeat for the Russians. The problem was the Russians could replace thier losses the Germans could not. The fact is that the Allies Landing in Scicilly called an end to the offensive. That is a fact.

    So whatever colour the Russians wish to paint the Kursk Offensive it was not as pretty as they say. They came closer to collapse than they like to portray.
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Zitadelle was a two pronged offensive, and the 9th Army on the northern shoulder of the bulge had already been stopped dead in it's tracks. You can't clap with one hand only, can you.

    Also on the south Prokhorovka occurred because the straight route to Kursk had been found impassable due to the resistance at Oboyan, and actually 2nd SS PzKorps had to veer to the right where resistance was apparently weaker. Too bad, Guards 5th Tank Army was heading that way. And P. was not a humuliating defeat for the Soviets (not Russians, Soviets please), for 2nd SSPzK certainly did not advance any further, did it?

    And I don't see anything wrong in being able fto replace one's losses, it signifies one country had the means to continue fighting and the other chose the wrong war. Also if you look it a different way, Hitler wasn't quite happy with the Zitadelle plan at all, so the Sicilian debarkment was a fine excuse to call off the entire show - as if the Soviets themselves had not already launched a full fledged offensive in the North themselves...
     
  11. Tiger AusFe

    Tiger AusFe Junior Member

    Zitadelle was a two pronged offensive, and the 9th Army on the northern shoulder of the bulge had already been stopped dead in it's tracks. You can't clap with one hand only, can you.

    Also on the south Prokhorovka occurred because the straight route to Kursk had been found impassable due to the resistance at Oboyan, and actually 2nd SS PzKorps had to veer to the right where resistance was apparently weaker. Too bad, Guards 5th Tank Army was heading that way. And P. was not a humuliating defeat for the Soviets (not Russians, Soviets please), for 2nd SSPzK certainly did not advance any further, did it?

    And I don't see anything wrong in being able fto replace one's losses, it signifies one country had the means to continue fighting and the other chose the wrong war. Also if you look it a different way, Hitler wasn't quite happy with the Zitadelle plan at all, so the Sicilian debarkment was a fine excuse to call off the entire show - as if the Soviets themselves had not already launched a full fledged offensive in the North themselves...

    O.K, I know what the operation entailed, and I know the results of the battle. I am saying that the Soviets came very close to collapse and it was not as easy a victory as they portray. that is what i am saying.

    Secondly you need to read a bit more about the Battle of Kursk. It was not the Death Ride of the panzers as portrayed by historians prior to the modern era. provorovka was a pretty bad defeat for the soviets. As for the "Tigers are Burning!" Cheer, the fact remains that of the ss Panzer Divisions employed they only lost 4 Tigers.

    The T34's did best the Panthers in the initial stages of combat though.

    I have never met anyone who was sad the Germans lost the battle, never met anyone who was wishing they could have won either. But your bias is a little unsettling. Simply saying "One prong did not work!" does not really give any information about the battle, much the same as me saying "Yeah....They used tanks!" It is just stating the obvious! the reason the southern prong advanced further was because Many german commanders changed plans at the last minute, thus the Lucy Spy ring was unable to provide information of German plans to the Soviet command, hence the russians could not react in time to prevent losing ground. I would not say the russians were Superior to the Germans at Kursk, but what they did do was make the most effective use of defence networks and systems to wear the Germans down.

    This proved deadly effective.
     
  12. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Tiger, you are right when you say that Kursk was a hard fought battle and that the Soviets made excellent use of Defensive networks. The Soviets had a hard time of it even with the excellent intelligence already in their possession about German intentions. The idea that the Russians were about to collapse is also a bit of a generalisation. The Russians were able to immediately mount an offensive of their own, even whilst the Germans were trying to disengage themselves from the "Citadel" attack. Operation Kutuzov, which involved over 300,000 Russian troops ultimately led to the recapture of Orel. For an army that was "close to collapse" it seems unlikely that it could launch such a big offensive. The offensive is classed as going for 6 weeks, not bad for an army that was close to collapse. This offensive also sucked reserves away from Kursk forcing the Germans to react to this.

    Citadel was envisaged as a pincer attack. As such the offensive was always going to be in trouble once the Northern Arm ran out of steam. It forced the South to pick up the baton. Thus Za's comment, of the one handed clap warrants some merit. Because he is right. Whether the Germans were going to break through or not we can debate all night. What is not in doubt was by the time the 6th Army surrendered in Stalingrad the chance that Hitler had to defeat the Soviet Union was well gone. The best Kursk would have done would have been to force the Russians to open diplomative negotiations. To be honest I think that the Wehrmacht only ever had one chance to win in the East and that was in the Summer of 1941. But I digress, I dont agree with your assessment of the Soviets being close to collapse. But feel free to disagree!
     
  13. Tiger AusFe

    Tiger AusFe Junior Member

    will do tomorrow when I have all the facts to hand. ;)
     
  14. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    will do tomorrow when I have all the facts to hand. ;)
    Absolutely no problem! :)
     
  15. Miguel B.

    Miguel B. Member

    i think the Germans lost all their chances against Russia on June's the 22nd 1941... But that's just me :p
    That's what happens when a single factory complex of your opponent can outproduce you.

    btw, in Kursk, the Stavka reserve was actually larger than the hwole german offensive so that thing about the Russian army being close to extintion is bogus.
    i'll give in to one thing tough; statistically speaking, the losses at Kursk in terms of tanks were more severe than those for the Germans. However, as said earlier, they were still able to launch major offensives pretty much everywhere along the front afterwards so, there go the statistics :D



    Cheers...
     
  16. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    This is the German view from a Dörfler publication.

    The book is a handy reference book and I can recommend it. German text with English (Shortened translations).

    Plenty of good photographs and information.

    Regards
    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    It's all so pretty when seen through rosy spectacles, isn't it? I don't have the time for kid's games, I'm showing my chef how to do a proper Lobster Thermidor.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Stig O'Tracy

    Stig O'Tracy Senior Member

    It's all so pretty when seen through rosy spectacles, isn't it? I don't have the time for kid's games, I'm showing my chef how to do a proper Lobster Thermidor.

    [​IMG]

    Ah yummy, that is if it's Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam.
     
  19. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    No, that's something else entirely. Spam on a lobster? That's news for me [shudder] :D
     
  20. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Miguel,

    Monty Pythons favourite dish :D

    Regards
    Tom
     

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