Ken Smith - Motorcycles use with DCLI

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Rich Payne, Jan 25, 2010.

  1. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Following some 'Visitor Message' correspondence with Ken Smith who first introduced himself on this thread - Here it seemed that much would be of wider interest and with his permission, I've started this thread and transferred his comments over.

    "Hi Rich, Rode a Norton 16H in 1943 in the uk , Issued with a early Matchless GCL 350 with teledrolic forks and ridged frame in Palestine in 1945 to 1947, used it in Egypt and Jorden also. We also had some "spare" BSA M21 sidevalve machines in Palestine which we stripped down and marked out a speedway track on the sand, our Company Officer rode as well!!! After the war,a firm called Pride and Clarks in London had hundreds of ex militery motor bikes lined up, sold as seen, some brand new at a price of £20 each! Then I could not afford one, army pay was around 15p a day. (£1.05 per week)"

    The mention of stripped down WD machines for competition during the post-war period in the Middle East is well documented. Apparently it was encouraged by the military authorities and much ingenuity went into turning the heavy WD bikes into useful off-roaders. I found a photo of an M20 being put to this type of use

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    I didn't manage to find a £20 priced advert from Pride & Clarke but a perhaps slightly earlier one from Copes at a time when a new Norton (if you could get one) cost around £140

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    "I was an infantryman for 5 years , Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry so only a DR at oddtimes in Normandy. Yes we had "Canadian Nortons" for a time, these had crash bars with knee pads, one had a sidecar with mountings for a Bren L M G. I believe the sidecar wheel was "driven" but that was 66 years ago so forgive me if I am wrong. I never saw any Royal Enfields myself. We aquired a couple of Corgi folding machines in Holland from the Polish airborne but as a footsoldier left them in a ditch! After demob I had a D K W 350 two stroke, pressed steel frame and ended my motorcycling with a 600 Panther Combination".

    The use of Canadian issued Nortons is of particular interest to me, especially the aspect of leg shields. It has been reported that the Canadians were particularly concerned about the number of leg injuries. Their 'exuberant' riding style may have had something to do with this. The leg shield design was based on an idea from the senior Canadian MO and was submitted via MEE for testing. There were originally 500 sets ordered according to the records from RAOC Chilwell but I have seen a suggestion that only 24 pairs were produced and never actually issued. If the shields are the same as Ken used then this is new information.

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    This is how the period motorycle press reported developments :-

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    The use of a Bren on a Motley mount on Sidecar-wheel-drive Norton outfits does seem to have been mainly a Canadian development

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    I had a day out in the chair of a similar outfit at the end of last year. They are more than competent in the mud. Apparently I was snapped reaching for my hip-flask:)

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    "Back to Palestine, We gave up using motorcycles because of the streathed wires that decapitated the DR's. Changed to Jeeps with angle iron in front to cut wires. Had many weeks in hospital when jeep was overturned whilst riding "shotgun" on the Nazereth road".

    These insurgent tactics had been used by the Germans during the war and were the subject of an information film and photgraphic guide on how to modify machines to protect against the danger.

    [​IMG]

    I'm sure that Ken has lots more to add.

    Rich
     
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  2. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    What an excellent thread, and all the better because I had the pleasure of going to Normandy with Ken last summer.
     
  3. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Rich,

    That is an excellent thread.
    I will let my friend in the Uk know about this thread being that he too rode one of these in the 43rd wessex.

    Just a pity that I cannot get him speak about Normandy through to Market garden or to put anything down on paper.

    I have tried many times and failed miserably:(.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  4. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    It's been a while since I saw a mention in print of "Pride & Shark" :lol: IIRC...Classic Motorcycle used to mention them occasionally in articles - they had the contract as "point of sale" for ex-MOD machines for a few years.

    These weren't released through the commercial channel in mufti, there was a REME programme for a quick repaint and VERY primitive pinstriping job. Bikes that had come through the programme had a brass "release" plaque inside the toolbox recording where the work had been done, I ALMOST bought an M20 at auction 20 years ago that was in pretty fresh ex-release condition, complete with plaque...wish I had!!! :unsure: Probably more rare now than ones restored to "in service" condition with all the webbing fittings, fire extinguishers etc.!!!

    As for stripped-down bikes in the Delta and North Africa for both unoffical racing and "officially" organised competition events....CMV quite often has pics of these in some of their period picture collections. It seems that EVERY unit that had bikes for some reason had one stripped down and tweaked "behind the sheds" ;) And usually nabbed by the Sergeant for personal use!!! :rolleyes:
     
  5. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    From the days I used to carry a camera everywhere - the said bike at auction!

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    I don't think the little "BSA" tank tansfer was "original" - but the tank colour was, IIRC it specified "blue-green" on the data plate. You can't quite see it here, but there was a (thin) gold-lined lozenge shape outlined on the top of the tank.
     
  6. beeza

    beeza Senior Member

    Noting references to the sidecar wheel being driven, I am wondering how that was
    done ? Was there an extension of the back wheel axle or what ?

    David
     
  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The WD 'Big 4' ran a live axle with a prop shaft engaged by a dog clutch. No differential so essential to disengage on hard surfaces, otherwise they go straight on !

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    Because of the danger of this happening, those sold to the public post-war had the sidecar wheel drive cut off. Many of the WD versions had 'AA' box sidecars (with the pointed front as used by the AA) and they were popular as 'Tradesmen's boxes'

    It was based on a pre-war trials sidecar design which had been outlawed from competition as it was felt to have an unfair advantage.
     
  8. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Rich, what's the cable/wire marked "X" at the top of the pic? it seems to go round a sharp, tied-down angle on a frame member so I reckon it's NOT a bowden cable....but nor can I see a tail light on the sidecar wheel 'guard. Was there a running light on the front or rear of the sidecar body?
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Phylo, Everything's marked 'X' !!!

    I think that we're just looking at the wiring for the sidecar lamp. It was a small front sidelight fitted in front of the outrigger stay so not visible from the rear.

    Being hit from the rear doesn't seem to have been much of a concern in those days. My 16H was built with no brake light and the Lucas MT110 rear is about 1" diameter (no reflectors either).

    There's certainly no sidecar wheel brake or parking brake on these so it wouldn't be a Bowden cable.
     
  10. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    There's certainly no sidecar wheel brake or parking brake on these so it wouldn't be a Bowden cable



    Then is the big white-rubber-handled lever up beside the battery running down to the rear hub the dog clutch?
     
  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Then is the big white-rubber-handled lever up beside the battery running down to the rear hub the dog clutch?

    Certainly is. It has a release lever on the leading edge.
     
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  12. beeza

    beeza Senior Member

    Rich,
    Thanks for that explanation. The pic tells all. Stop lamps were not the vogue at
    all at least up to the late 50's. None of my bikes of that era used them, only a stop
    light on the rear.
    David
     
  13. Ken Smith

    Ken Smith WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi there,
    I suddenly appear after a few years absence. Could not get on with the new set up, not being very computer literate! Would love to start again if anyone is interested in an old ww2 veteran. 5th DCLI. 43 Wessex Div. Plenty of stories. Please? Ken Smith. Secretary/Treasurer York Normandy Veterans.[Late NVA]
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  14. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Hello Ken. It's lovely to see you back on the forum.

    Of course we are extremely interested in any stories from you :) .

    As a matter of fact, since you have been away from the forum, I joined 4 years ago as a new member, and I am in touch with a few Veterans.
    I recently met a Veteran of 56 Recce, my late father's regiment, who remembers him very well. Last year I made a trip to Italy for the 70th Anniversary of the Italian Campaign and visited the areas where my father would have been.

    I am also in touch with 95 year old Veteran Wilf Shaw from Oldham, who was in the 6th Battalion, Green Howards. He is fit and well and I go to see him quite often.

    Lesley
     

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