The JU390 was originally designed as a maritime reconaissance/transport aircraft and not a bomber as some people have intimated. It was derived from the Junkers 290 but onoly 2 or 3 were ever built. The C version however was intended as a bomber. Some interesting links relating to the JU 390: First the Wiki entry about it: Junkers Ju 390 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Next up: a comparison between the JU 390, B-29 Superfortress and the B-36 Peacemaker from this link: WWII MISTERIES: What happened with the JU390? - Page 11 - Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums Ju-390: 10,380 hp Installed horsepower 75,500 kg (166,400 lb) MTOW weight 254 m² (2,730 ft²) Wing area 0.17 kW/kg (0.10 hp/lb) Power to weight ratio B-29: 8,800hp Installed horsepower 60,560 kg (133,800lb) MTOW weight 161.3 m² (1,736 ft²) Wing area (0.6577hp/ib) Power to weight ratio B-36: 21,000hp Installed horsepower 190,000kg (410,00 lb) MTOW weight 443.3 m.2 (4,772 sq.ft) Wing area 120 kW/kg (0.086 hp/lb) Power to weight ratio A Gallery of the plane: Rod's WarBirds Finally a declassified report from NASA relating to the engines used, the BMW 801D's: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930093290_1993093290.pdf Enjoy.
This plane was the nearest thing Germany had to an intercontinental aircraft I can't agree with the statement at all there GH. The Germans had a truly intercontinental aircraft in the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 which flew non-stop from Berlin to New York on August 10, 1938 in 24 hours and 56 minutes and returned on August 13 1938 in 19 hours and 47 minutes. In its military guise the aircraft undertook maritime patrols and reconnaissance over the North Atlantic as well as its transport role.
Point taken PP and post duly amended.Incidentally the FW200 was a beautiful aircraft in its design. I wonder was the JU390 the proposed replacement for it?
Interestingly theres an artists illustration of a "Zwilling" design of a 290 (the forerunner of the 390) on this webpage: Junkers Aircraft of WWII
I can't agree with the statement at all there GH. The Germans had a truly intercontinental aircraft in the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 which flew non-stop from Berlin to New York on August 10, 1938 in 24 hours and 56 minutes and returned on August 13 1938 in 19 hours and 47 minutes. In its military guise the aircraft undertook maritime patrols and reconnaissance over the North Atlantic as well as its transport role. Just to come back to you on this point, indeed the FW200 was an intercontinental aircraft, no disputing that fact. However its range (or lack of) would have made it unsuitable for any military use given that it could not carry out missions to the US and return. Its max range, and I refer to the C-4 version, was 3,556km combat range. The distance from Paris to New York is in the region of 5,800 kms as the crow flies. The JU390 however had a range of 9,700 kms. So whilst the FW200 was the first intercontinental plane the JU390 was nearly 3 times the range of it. Just to give people a comparison of the two aircraft.
The distance from Paris to New York is in the region of 5,800 kms as the crow flies. The JU390 however had a range of 9,700 kms. So whilst the FW200 was the first intercontinental plane the JU390 was nearly 3 times the range of it. Just to give people a comparison of the two aircraft. Rather than looking at the numbers, how about looking at the practical view and see why it was never used as a bomber at such ranges, despite how much Hitler would have loved to say that he could bomb the Continental US. How much of the 5,800 Kms of a bombing run from Paris to New York would be out of fighter escort range? How much of that would be over enemy territory, in range of what would be a very determined fighter defense and having had to fly through airspace covered by allied radar hours before? Not including having to fly into a coastal radar screen approaching the US and Canada. How many aircraft do you think would reach their target and if any, how many would make it back. Although dropping bombs on the Continental US would have been a major propaganda coup, all value would have been lost with the loss of all aircraft and the lack of a hero's photo call on their return (not that that couldn't have been faked). An aircraft that is capable of flying the distance, isn't neccessarily capable of completing the mission. So if you were saying that the Ju 390 was an intercontinental bomber, I'm still not sure I can agree.
I'm not stating that its a bomber at all PP. It was developed from a maritime reconnaisance aircraft/transport and the idea of it being a bomber came later. What I am merely saying is that the term "Intercontinental plane" would sit more easily on the JU390's shoulders than it would on the FW200's given that the Condors mission would be one way only due to its range! Whilst its not just about numbers you cant deny that the FW200 was unsuitable for long-range missions to the US Eastern Seaboard, whereas the JU 390 would have been able to reach it and return. You are right about the idea of bombing the US though. The entire "Amerika Bomber" project was a flight of fancy as opposed to a well founded project for the reasons you have mentioned.
I can see your point that the range of the Ju 390 is greater than the Fw 200, although unsure if it was ever proved, but I fail to see the point of your argument as to their potential use. The Fw 200 was an intercontinental transport aircraft. There is no point being able to fly there and back unless you are a bomber. If you were referring to an intercontinental recce aircraft, that would have received the same fate as would a bomber. At the time the only possibility to interpret the int or photos obtained would be to get back to a base, which wouldn't have been very likely if it had made it over the US. A recce aircraft was to gather intelligence.... it still needed to be collated and interpreted to be of any use. For that to be possible photos would have to be developed onboard and the results sent by radio fax back to Germany. Nice idea, but if radio fax had been available then, which it wasn't, the possibility would have been prevented by the range as fax could not be sent by HF until the development of digital radio. So recce was also as futile as it's use as a bomber. If the possible uses of the Ju 390 were impractical and the extreme range not required, then it is of little surprise that only two prototypes were built before the project was canceled. The Ju 390 may have potentially been an intercontinental bomber aircraft, the Fw 200 was a practical intercontinental transport aircraft, of which about 275 were built and examples were used by several airlines after the war.
I can see your point that the range of the Ju 390 is greater than the Fw 200 although unsure if it was ever proved, but I fail to see the point of your argument as to their potential use. The Fw 200 was an intercontinental transport aircraft. There is no point being able to fly there and back unless you are a bomber. If you were referring to an intercontinental recce aircraft, that would have received the same fate as would a bomber. At the time the only possibility to interpret the int or photos obtained would be to get back to a base, which wouldn't have been very likely if it had made it over the US. A recce aircraft was to gather intelligence.... it still needed to be collated and interpreted to be of any use. For that to be possible photos would have to be developed onboard and the results sent by radio fax back to Germany. Nice idea, but if radio fax had been available then, which it wasn't, the possibility would have been prevented by the range as fax could not be sent by HF until the development of digital radio. So recce was also as futile as it's use as a bomber. If the possible uses of the Ju 390 were impractical and the extreme range not required, then it is of little surprise that only two prototypes were built before the project was canceled. The Ju 390 may have potentially been an intercontinental bomber aircraft, the Fw 200 was a practical intercontinental transport aircraft, of which about 275 were built and examples were used by several airlines after the war. Sorry PP, I wasnt making an argument for its use as a bomber, Maritime Recce, or transport. I made reference to the fact that it was developed from a maritime Recce/transport plane and that the idea for a bomber came later. I made reference to the fact of its superior range and at no stage did I argue its potential use other than to say that its range was superior and that the term "intercontinental plane" sat more easily on its shoulders and that due to its range it would have been more suitable for missions to the Eastern Seaboard. I didnt say that it would necessarily make a good bomber or a good recce plane or indeed a good transport. At no stage did I argue that it would be a great plane only to state that by virtue of its range did it exceed the FW200. Thanks for the info on the FW200. Here is a thread that has been started already about this plane: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology-equipment/6384-focke-wulf-fw-200-a.html I would like to point out PP that I am merely highlighting the JU390 as being an aircraft that people might like to read up on. I am making no conclusions as to its worth other than to say that it was a long-range aircraft.
I am presuming air to air refuelling was impossible at this time? Not impossible, as it had been performed between biplanes in early experiments and in breaking of endurance records, but it certainly was impractical for refuelling operational aircraft until after the war.
Paul The in-flight refueling was created in pre-WWII On these link You can foun more info: Unreal Aircraft - Flying Forever - Pre-WW2 In-Flight Refuelling Cobham plc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Aerial refueling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Evolution of Technology
GH, I sort of see what you were trying to say, however intercontinental means being able to fly non-stop between continents, which the Fw 200 achieved in practice not just in theory. The ability to fly there and back doesn't make it any more intercontinental. Would you say the term intercontinental sits more firmly on the shoulders of an aircraft that actually flew intercontinental, or on one that may have had the range, but never achieved it in practice?
Thanks for the information on in-flight refuelling. I asked, because obviously the availability of such a thing might have affected the useage of any aircraft that could fly the sort of distance these ones could. Would you say the term intercontinental sits more firmly on the shoulders of an aircraft that actually flew intercontinental, or on one that may have had the range, but never achieved it in practice? Not sure what you mean by this; surely if any aircraft is capable of flying that sort of distance it is an intercontinental aircraft? I don't get the point you are trying to make. Either the aircraft is intercontinental or it isn't??
Not sure what you mean by this; surely if any aircraft is capable of flying that sort of distance it is an intercontinental aircraft? I don't get the point you are trying to make. Either the aircraft is intercontinental or it isn't?? Exactly, it was GH who broached the idea that the Ju 390 was 'more' intercontinental due to its range.
Exactly, it was GH who broached the idea that the Ju 390 was 'more' intercontinental due to its range. And as per the specs this would seem to indicate so. I do take your point that the FW200 had already flown across the Atlantic though.
The FW 200 was designrd as a civil airliner and adapted to the Long range maritime reconnaissance role and could carry a few bombs. It was a reasonable aircraft but tended to break its back on rough landings. Never the less it provided valuable service. The Ju 390 was never built in production numbers and therefore we can only speculate on what its service record would have been. Most of the later German designs of planes that failed to reach prototype or pre-production had impressive figures on paper. However translating the figures from paper to reality were often more difficult. It has to be said that there was a lot of design work being carried out by Germany, right up until the end, most of which has been incorporated into planes post war. Regards Tom
Most of the later German designs of planes that failed to reach prototype or pre-production had impressive figures on paper. However translating the figures from paper to reality were often more difficult. Another of the points I was making. The Fw 200 was a proven airframe that provided service. The Ju 390, having impressive figures on paper, they weren't impressive enough in reality to stop the project from being canceled.
I can't agree with the statement at all there GH. The Germans had a truly intercontinental aircraft in the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 which flew non-stop from Berlin to New York on August 10, 1938 in 24 hours and 56 minutes and returned on August 13 1938 in 19 hours and 47 minutes. In its military guise the aircraft undertook maritime patrols and reconnaissance over the North Atlantic as well as its transport role. In 1938 the FW200 made a solitary one way flight to New York with minimal payload. That is not truely intercontinental. When U-234 was making it's way through the Skegerrak between Denmark and Sweeden after leaving Kiel it collided underwater when a type VII U-boat surfaced underneath her. U-234 purt into Kristiansund for repairs. Her radio man Wolfgang Hirschfeld related in his autobiography that several tons of documents and items in her cargo were such high priority that they were offloaded to be flown to Japan. Initially it was proposed to use one of 3/KG40's FW200 aircraft, but this proposal was abandoned because it lacked the range and payload ability. I can see your point that the range of the Ju 390 is greater than the Fw 200, although unsure if it was ever proved, but I fail to see the point of your argument as to their potential use. Speer in his memoirs then notes that on 28 March 1945 a Ju-390 flew a mission to Japan with priority cargo and a Japanese VIP from Germany, whom Russian sources mention being Maj Gen Otani. Another of the points I was making. The Fw 200 was a proven airframe that provided service. The Ju 390, having impressive figures on paper, they weren't impressive enough in reality to stop the project from being canceled. Ju-390 production was stopped along with production of all Bombers and Transports in July 1944 because of the Emergency Fighter Production Program. There had been an order for 25 Production models of the Ju-390 and my friend and author of several books on the Luftwaffe Geoffrey Brooks has acquainted me with the fact RLM paid Hugo Junkers financial compensation for seven Ju-390 airframes in production which had to be scrapped.
