Joint Military Grave

The family legend has it that he was shot at Dunkirk and that he refused treatment as he felt that others were more severely injured. Clearly he was never at Dunkirk and I have always felt that the rest of the legend was a bit sentimental.
Would a death certificate shed any light, or is it more likely to just say died from wounds? Presumably it would also provide a definitive dath of death?

 

Yup. I knew this. Can't have left any damage

 

Not sure how you have jumped to this conclusion. 2nd Battalion Royal Sussex Regt were in BEF and at Dunkirk. Dates fit with him being wounded at Dunkirk, evacuated and then dying in UK. You really need to obtain a copy of his Service Records to throw light on this.

Tim

 

Because I thought the Dunkirk evacuation happened after he returned to England....not my historical forte!

 

The clip Tony posted says ex BEF died of wounds so likely he was wounded at Dunkirk
Copy of his death cert would advise further.

Also as we have all suggested apply for his service records

And lastly your original query was about the joint grave
I contacted CWGC today and they did not have any further info on why he has a joint grave.
Your next port of call is Is Chester cemeteries 01244 972428 and see if they have any details on the burial register.

Regards
Clive

 

I was thinking of a rather more informed person checking, but its looks like CL has done exactly that.

 

Ouch

 

Service records cost money and I was only going to contact the MOD as a last resort. plus the fact that his nearest living relative is my mum who has to give written consent but she lives 200+ miles away. I was hoping that a worthy collective such as yourselves might have encountered a similar situation and could possibly shed some light.....
I too, have contacted the CWGC (as mentioned in my op) but they bounced me back to the MOD.

 

You don;t require written consent.
Apply for the records of someone who's deceased
You can apply for a copy of someone else’s service records if any of the following apply:

• you’re their immediate next of kin, for example their spouse or parent
• you’ve got consent from their immediate next of kin
• you have a general research interest - you’ll only have access to limited information, unless they died more than 25 years ago

You need to know the person’s full name, date of birth and service number.

Fill in 2 forms - a request form and a search form.


And many times we on the forum have helped members but service records will give you information in your research.I have visited many cemeteries and have come across many discrepancies which members on here help with plus the CWGC are very helpful.

From the many casualties I have researched with joint graves most often used as per the below examples.However in your case it could possible be that this was the very early war period and the authorities assumed that they would have have many casualties so looked at the possibility of joint graves to save space.

This is something I had from CWGC a few years ago.

"In a few cemeteries, where the burials are very crowded (the bodies being buried three or four deep) it will be impracticable to have individual headstones. In such cases it may be necessary to have a single monument for each plot of ground, or headstones containing several names. I am inclined to think that the former method would be the less distressing to the feelings of relatives. These, however, are quite exceptional cases. The normal practice is that of single burials, which admits of individual headstones"

1/The names of the bodies were known but not singularly identifiable due to an explosion/burning so they would have been placed in a joint/multiple grave.
example here of 3 Airmen in the same grave due to air crash Row N.D. Coll. grave 27.


2/Family relationship
example here



3/Joint grave with non related casualties buried together as per your query .Possibly related but also the grave yard is over crowded.
Example below

 

My mum has to sign the form. In a consensual way......

 

No she does not have to sign the form - many on here have applied for records of people we are not related to and have rec'd those record for research purposes - she can sign the form if she likes - I could send away for those records without her "authority"

TD

 

Apply for the records of someone who's deceased
You can apply for a copy of someone else’s service records if any of the following apply:

• you’re their immediate next of kin, for example their spouse or parent
• you’ve got consent from their immediate next of kin
• you have a general research interest - you’ll only have access to limited information, unless they died more than 25 years ago

You need to know the person’s full name, date of birth and service number.

Fill in 2 forms - a request form and a search form.

 

Whilst the CWGC classify these two as "joint" graves, there clearly is space for two headstones/coffins, even if side by side. Whilst unusual practice, it was wartime and there may well have been a practical reason for the grave being dug large enough for two.
He wasn't from Chester, so the likely conclusion is that he was in a hospital there.

As said previously, the 2nd Bn were in the BEF and in the withdrawal from Europe (where I have I heard that recently?) but as to when he was wounded is probably lost with the 2nd Bn records. If he was an early casualty, he may well have been evacuated ahead of the desperate fighting around the Dunkirk bridgehead.

Clearly from family story, he was lucid enough to say that others were more seriously wounded, which marks him as utterly selfless and a shame he succumbed to those wounds, but if left untreated gangrene can set in and be impossible to prevent death occurring.

I can understand perhaps your reluctance to spend £30 to obtain his records, but it is a paltry sum if you want to finally understand more about him - and the Lads here can help unravel Army terminology. You've come this far, you can stop with the question unanswered or go on and find out more, possibly enough to scratch that itch.

You've seen he was rejected by the Army in 1920 and presumably after that he emigrated to Canada, so there should be records of his voyage there and presumably for when he returned, sufficiently early to become a Regular in the 2nd Battalion Royal Sussex. There seems to be quite a back story to this man, and I do hope you persevere to find it.

Wiki

 

I'm not trying to be a wossname but the form clearly states:
"The immediate Next of Kin whose consent is required for disclosure of the record is the first person in the following list that is still alive."
My mother then has to sign to confirm she is his niece etc.
Given that I have found various WW2 snippets of info about him, I don't see any point in requesting a duplicate of the infomation I already have.....therefore I shall apply for as much information as possible, and not just for 'research perposes'.

 

He left on the 'Montrose' but I have yet to find his return. But I will!

 

Sorry but you are not reading the Forms right. When a person has been dead for over 25 years anyone can obtain the Service Record.
You do not need to complete the Next of Kin Form, all you need is the General Enquirer's Part 1 and the Part 2 for Army. This is the relevant part from the notes on Part 1

Note that if you are not the immediate Next of Kin or do not have the consent of the Next of Kin*then for a period of 25 years following the date of death the only information that will be disclosed to you is surname; forename; rank; service number; regiment/corps; place of birth; age; date of birth; date of death where this occurred in service; the date an individual joined the service,the date of leaving; good conduct medals (i.e. Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GCM)), and any orders of chivalry and gallantry medals (decorations of valour) awarded, some of which may have been announced in the London Gazette. After this period the following information will also be disclosed,the units in which he/she served, the dates of this service and the locations of those units; the ranks in which the service was carried out and details of campaign medals awarded.

Tim

Edit: Since he died in Service you do not have to supply a Death Certificate.

 

His service records will not duplicate what you already have, if you are next of kin you may receive fractionally more details from the service file than if you were a 'researcher' either way they will provide far more information or details than you could ever find trawling the internet

We say this to members because many of us have already gone down the route you are going, you asked for our advice, which we have given you freely as to what is the best way for you to answer your intial questions. The advice we have given is not just plucked out of thin air.

If he died more than 25 years ago then -
you have a general research interest - you’ll only have access to limited information, unless they died more than 25 years ago

at that point it does not matter if you are a relative or just a researcher you will receive the same, and as he died in 1940 maths tells you the answer

TD

 

Perhaps there was an element of truth but it related to 1921 when he refused an operation to treat his ear problems?

 

Grasshopper

You are really making this difficult for yourself. Apply for the service records.

Many of us on here deal with casualties and service records on a regular basis so we do know what we are talking about
You can order the records for £30 quid by yourself you don't need a signature from your mum read the below


Apply for the records of someone who's deceased
You can apply for a copy of someone else’s service records if any of the following apply:

• you’re their immediate next of kin, for example their spouse or parent
• you’ve got consent from their immediate next of kin
• you have a general research interest - you’ll only have access to limited information, unless they died more than 25 years ago

 

As glasshopper was told by his master

Insert "Service records" for kung fu"!

So, Caine - are you Abel?