John Holland SAUNDERS (228040) - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron Royal Engineers

Discussion in 'Royal Engineers' started by Michel Sabarly, Nov 1, 2015.

  1. Henk,

    If I understand correctly, you have a total of five LVT(4) plus two LVT(2)?

    This gives you the choice to portray pretty much any LCT(4) and her load at Westkapelle.

    Forum member Tolbooth posted the Landing Table here:
    Updated Resource - Operation Infatuate Landing Table and Beaching Diagram V2

    However, the Hull number and/or precise load of every Serial is not known.

    Michel
     
    Aixman likes this.
  2. Henk Z

    Henk Z Member

    thanks for post.

    I have in total now:
    4 LVT4
    2x LVT2 (1x with hatches en 1x without)
    2 LVT4 in building progres
    5x polsten guns.(already 1 on LVT4)
    1x medical kit

    in order 1x Weasel (very expensive kit)

    for the figures various haeds from Hornet

    lot of work for the 75th anniversary this year.
     
  3. reinaart

    reinaart Member

    Regarding the two pics of LVT4 Esquay posted by Michel on the first page, both these pics were taken in Middelburg from the "Havendijk"/"Punt". The location is still easy to recognize :

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I'm looking for some specific info about the 4 LVTs aboard LCT 611 (29) and the 5 LVT's aboard LCT 1068 (27). What type were these LVTs (2 or 4 ?) and perhaps something is known about vehicle names/registration numbers. I would also like to know which shipyard built LCT 611.

    I also wonder about whether LCT Mk 4s had rubbing strakes at the bottom of the hull sides. These are not shown on my 1/35 LCT4 plan but they are present on the Heller 1/400 model .

    Regards,

    Arjan
     
    ramacal likes this.
  4. Arjan,

    Thanks for identifying the location of the pics of 'ESQUAY'.

    uboat.net gives LCT 611 as built by Motherwell Bridge (Meadowside, Scotland, U.K.), but I have nothing precise on her or 1068's load on 1 Nov 44 though.

    I am not sure that I understand your question about the rubbing strakes. LCT(4) normally had just one line of them each side. See for example LCT 524 on a view similar to the last photo on my post #4 above:
    524 LCT(4) N22 (1526) 6 Jun pm prob.jpg

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  5. reinaart

    reinaart Member

    Thanks Michel. Not sure whether or not this was a rubbing strake but in your pic I also seem to notice a raised edge near the bottom of the hull sides. This is the Heller model, I marked the deliberately raised edge with a black marker :

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Regards,

    Arjan
     
  6. Now I see what you mean. What look likes a raised edge on LCT 524 is an optical illusion caused either by different shades in the below-waterline colour or by the vertical plates caving in above the lower angle. This angle is normally 90 degrees, as seen on plans and on new craft. See for example:
    [​IMG] IWM (A 22739)

    There is no raised edge at the bottom, and the protrusion on the Heller model should be cut out.

    Michel
     
  7. reinaart

    reinaart Member

    Thanks Michel ! Henk pointed out to me that the door leading from the hold to the deck house was a sliding door rather than an ordinary door. I wonder if there are other inaccuracies in the 1/35 Nexus plan.

    [​IMG]

    Regards,

    Arjan
     
  8. Arjan,

    The Nexus plan (my version is 1/48 rather than 1/35) is a simplified drawing aimed at RC modeller, rather than a perfectly accurate scale drawing. It does state that it is valid for LCT with hull numbers between 1050 and 1200. In spite of that, as you noticed, the hinged door is incorrect. As far as I know this door was always a sliding door.

    I haven't reviewed the plan in detail, but the best way to avoid errors in to use lots of photos as reference. Unfortunately the craft you have picked (611 & 1068) do not appear in many photos or films, but they must incorporate the distinctive features of the production lot to which they respectively belong.

    As for the Accurate Armour model, you can totally trust it, because the master was built by Dan Taylor according to shipyard drawings. I'm not sure to which hull number(s) these drawings apply though. Is this mentioned in the assembly instructions?

    Michel
     
  9. reinaart

    reinaart Member

    Thanks Michel, I no longer have the 1/35 AA kit and I don't remember what was mentioned in the instructions. One of the reasons I sold the kit was that the entrance to the hold was far too narrow for a 1/35 Sherman flail tank to pass through. I only know pics of Ian MacGognagle's superb 1/35 build, he opted for LCT 610 :




    Regards,

    Arjan
     
    mark abbott likes this.
  10. A Flail tank had only inches to spare when passing through the bows of an LCT(4), so maybe the Flail itself was a bit too wide for 1/35 scale? Loading a craft as depicted by Ian MacGonagle in his otherwise beautiful (if somewhat fanciful) diorama would be extremely tricky to achieve, if at all possible, without using cranes to load the two tanks (AVRE Bobbin and Flail) fore.

    Michel
     
  11. reinaart

    reinaart Member

    I don't think the 1/35 vehicles I tried were too wide. The 1/35 LVT(4) model had virtually no clearance on either side, certainly not the amount of clearance seen here :

    [​IMG]

    Besides, the entrance in the 1/35 Nexus plan was also quite a bit wider which at the time seemed to confirm my conclusion.

    Arjan
     
  12. Looks to me very much the same as on Henk's post #37 above :D

    However, tolerances are so tight here that the smallest error of dimension in either of the scale models might make the difference between pass or not:

    LCT tank deck width at bows:
    between walls = 12' 10"
    between securing rails = 12' 4"
    between various fittings = 11' 8"

    Overall width of:
    Sherman Flail Crab = 11' 6"
    LVT Mk.II or Mk.IV = 10' 8"

    Michel
     
  13. Never say 'never' (nor 'always'): :rolleyes:

    Here are two examples side by side of the hinged door between tank deck and crew quarters. These are craft undergoing repairs at Southampton Dry Docks after D Day. Craft on the right is 708:
    Hinged doors.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  14. reinaart

    reinaart Member

    Interesting photo, pity there doesn't seem to be a book about these RN LCTs. Talking of photos, you may not know these LVT(4) ones :

    Wolphaartsdijk (Zuid-Beveland), with men of the Dutch "Irene Brigade" if I remember correctly :

    [​IMG]

    Zaamslag (near Terneuzen) probably October 1944 :

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Regards,

    Arjan
     
  15. Great photos! It's always nice to see new pics of LVT. Do they come from one of the many excellent Dutch 'beeldbanken'?

    The first pic must show an LVT4 of 77 Aslt Sqn RE, from the barely visible (because red) squares on each side of the 1A marking. Pity that the WD number is partially hidden.

    Michel
     
  16. reinaart

    reinaart Member

    Of course I do know the Twenot thread in which the Esquay pic was posted, I actually contributed to it :). I found the pic taken in Wolphaartsdijk on a site about the Dutch " Prinses Irene Brigade" (a unit composed of Dutch men who had escaped to England during the war and had received their military training there). The pics taken in Zaamslag were from my contact in the local history society of Terneuzen.

    Arjan
     
  17. Arjan,

    Thanks for your answers. It was indeed thanks to your posting here, and before that on Twenot, that I found the great picture of 'ESQUAY' in Zoutelande, which fits nicely in this thread :D.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  18. On the occasion of the 75th anniversary of Capt Saunders' death at Westkapelle, I have updated my post #2 above by adding a high resolution photo of the mass of LCT berthed at Southampton.

    Michel
     
    ramacal and Deacs like this.
  19. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria. Patron

    Thanks again Michel for a brilliant thread.

    Regards Mike.
     

Share This Page