John BENNETT - S.S. Llangollen 1941

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by Mavis Williams, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Hi Everyone, I am trying to get a Merchant Seaman onto the CWGC database, but have to prove that he was abroad to pick up an illness, Malaria, and I cannot find the log books or crew lists, when I try Crew lists and agreements and log books of merchant ships after 1861 - The National Archives.

    He is John BENNETT, I found this newspaper cutting and he is not on out War Memorial, he seems to have slipped through the net.

    Found in the Chester Chronicle 23rd August 1941 Page 7 Col 5.

    CONNAH’S QUAY & SHOTTON

    The Late Mr. J. BENNETT – News was received this week by his relatives in Connah’s Quay of the death at sea of Mr. John BENNETT, who had recently made his home at Deane Mont, Upperdale, Hawarden. He was the youngest son of Capt. Thos.BENNETT, for many years proprietor of the New Inn. He leaves a wife and two children. He joined the merchant navy at the beginning of the war.

    I have downloaded from Ship Name: Llangollen Gross Tonnage: 5056 | The National Archives The : Llangollen Gross Tonnage: 5056 - Order number: 1841383 - Catalogue reference: BT 389/19/122, but it will not allow me to download for you to see, even though I have taken a page out. This explains that they were in
    Takoradi, Ghana, then Port Harcourt, and Forcados, Nigeria, then Freetown, Sierra Leone, West Africa.

    Can anyone tell me where the place of death would have been with the "23 -27 N and 20 - 29 W at Sea" means in the BMD at sea register also below. There is also he CR10 card.
    Any help would be appreciated, as he is not remembered anywhere.
    Kind regards, Mavis Williams
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    I have managed it now. Regards, Mavis
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Google Maps

    According to the deaths file he was at 24Deg 27min North - 20Deg 29min W - you have 23deg 27 North

    TD
     
  4. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Apologies TD, I didn't realise. Thanks for pointing it out. Regards, Mavis
     
  5. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    TD, I have just seen the Google map, I didn't not know how you could do this, thank you so much. I have to convince the CWGC that this is where he died. He needs to be remembered. Much appreciate this. Regards, Mavis
     
  6. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

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  7. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that TD, I agree completely, I have had to push back before when they refused, but eventually did concede, I will let you know. Many thanks for this. Kind regards, Mavis
     
  8. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    The Master of the ship acts as the Registrar of Births, Marriages and Deaths for those onboard.
     
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  9. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Mavis,
    Just interested in what you are trying to do with the CWGC? There is no doubt that John Bennett was aboard LANGOLLEN when he died and if you still need the Crew Agreement to prove this then you will find it at the National Archives, Kew in the following piece: BT 381/1526.
    John Bennett died at sea through illness and he won't be commemorated by the CWGC as his death was not attributable to enemy action. They are quite strict on this and there are over 5000 merchant seamen who died during WW2 who are not recognised by the CWGC as war dead. Still to this day they are the forgotten fourth service and their treatment has been shameful to say the least.
    So my question is what have the CWGC conceded to you?
    Regards
    Hugh
     
  10. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Hi Hugh, I am trying to get him on the CWGC database, and I know you are saying that he would have to die by enemy action, but I did get one soldier from WW1 on the database and he had a CWGC gravestone, who had Malaria, they said initially that he couldn't have one, but then when I pointed out that he couldn't have caught Malaria in Wales, he was awarded a gravestone and inclusion on the database. So I assumed that this was still the case.
    From: CWGC Enquiry Support Team [mailto:enquiries@cwgc.org]
    Sent: 21 August 2019 12:13
    To: mothermave@talktalk.net
    Subject: RE: CWGC Enquiry Acknowledgement: Number 00080005


    Dear Mavis

    Thank you for sending through a copy of the CR10 card for John Bennett.

    If you are able to submit evidence on the ship including movements, details of cargo etc. please let me know. The links below relate to documents held by the National Archives and may be of help:

    Ship Name: Llangollen | The National Archives

    Ship Name: Llangollen Gross Tonnage: 5056 | The National Archives

    Crew lists and agreements and log books of merchant ships after 1861 - The National Archives

    Kind regards,


    Lisa Simmonds
    CWGC Commemorations

    Regards, Mavis
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  11. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Mavis,
    The Armed Forces were different and were commemorated under a different rule-set. Merchant seaman - as I have already inferred - were shafted and commemorated under a very different and stricter rule-set.
    But keep going with it, the more people who put pressure on them the better but it would probably need an act of parliament as well as the entire Commonwealth to agree any changes. I wish you good luck and keep us posted.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
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  12. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that Hugh, I had no idea. That is terrible, as they all need remembering after the sacrifices and the horrors they went through. I will let you know if and when it happens. Kind regards, Mavis
     
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  13. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    SS Llangollen was part of Convoy SL 82. Departed Freetown 27 Jul 41. Arrived Liverpool 15 Aug 41.

    Tim
     
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  14. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Thanks too Roy, of course, I never thought of that, as he can marry people can't he. Thanks also Tim, more great information from this forum, Regards, Mavis
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  15. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Thank you Tim for this information re the convoy, I have to make the case that he was, perhaps, having to dodge the Germans, perhaps calling in ports etc., so the fact that he was part of a convoy is good news, where did you find it or where can I look and give a link to the CWGC please, can you help?
    This is one of the emails form CWGC:-
    From: CWGC Enquiry Support Team [mailto:enquiries@cwgc.org]
    Sent: 12 June 2019 17:43
    To:
    Subject:
    RE: CWGC Enquiry Acknowledgement: Number 00080005
    Dear Mrs Williams
    Thank you for your enquiry regarding John Bennett who died while serving with the Merchant Navy and does not appear in our records.
    In can confirm that in order to qualify for CWGC commemoration, members of the Merchant Navy must meet the following criteria:
    - The casualty must have been signed onto the books and sailing under employment on a British or Commonwealth ship.
    - Death must have been the result of:
    * Direct enemy action
    * Detainment by the enemy or
    * Increased war risks specified in the Pensions (Mercantile Marine) Act of 1942 which qualified the individual for a pension. In summary, increased war risks are where a vessel:
    * Had to take measures to either avoid or prevent enemy action against ships (in this case did the ship call at different ports to those on previous trips in order to avoid the enemy?)
    * Was not displaying or using navigation aids, normally carried in peacetime, because of the danger presented by the enemy to ships (in this case did the ship made unscheduled stops at port(s) in a malarial region because they were operating without navigation aids and strayed from their route?)
    * Was carrying wartime cargo in a manner which would be abnormal in peacetime and which involved danger to the ship or to her crew (is there evidence the crew were exposed to malaria due the cargo it was carrying?)
    * Had on board the existence of any other wartime conditions which would be abnormal in peacetime (in this case was the ship's route the same as that in peacetime - if so, could the casualty have been exposed to malaria pre-war?)

    In order to pursue this case, there would need to be evidence that he contracted his illness as a result of increased risks during his service in the Second World War. The following documents will therefore need to be provided:

    Death Certificate
    Medal records
    Service record
    Pension record
    Ship records (eg movement cards) available from the National Archives - see link below:
    Search results: llangollen | The National Archives

    I hope this is explanatory, however please do not hesitate to contact us again if you have any further questions or require clarification on anything.

    Kind regards,


    Lisa Simmonds
    CWGC Commemorations

    Commonwealth War Graves Commission, United Kingdom

    Tel: +44 1628 507200 | Website: www.cwgc.org


    Kind regards, Mavis
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  16. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    With his wife residing in "Beaumont", Upperdale, Hawarden, perhaps he may have a commemoration in a Roll of Honour at a nearby Church, that his wife/widow may have put him forward for inclusion.
    (I can't find a current "Beaumont" or "Deane Mont" as per newspaper article - and they should know local addresses) but perhaps might be shorthand for "c/o Beaumont (family, meaning she may have been lodging with them). I believe there still is a Beaumont family in Upperdale.......

    A neighbouring Church had a Merchant Seaman commemorated, but he is on the Tower Hill Memorial, as his ship was torpedoed by U635.
    Have to agree with Hugh, these were sailors risking their lives to ensure our population and Armed Services received the necessary supplies.

    If a member of the WW2 Armed Forces died "in Service" then that qualification should be good for all, including Merchant seamen and civilians. We record Civilian War Dead on the CWGC when as a result of enemy action, so hair splitting seems an unneeded insult.

    We even had a war service policeman recognised, when no direct "enemy action" involved. Maybe one day Hugh's dream will be realised.

    Convoy SL 82 had 1 escort vessel for the 11 ships forming the convoy. All ships arrived safely, but obviously crew could have died by being washed overboard in storms, accidents, falls as well as latent diseases.
    The LANGOLLEN carried W. A. Produce (presumably West African?) and unloaded at Oban.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  17. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

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  18. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    He is not, to my knowledge on any war memorial or Roll of Honour, I picked him up from the Newspaper article and started looking into his life and death. I have added him onto my list of other men from WW2 who were not on the WW2 War Memorial for Connah's Quay & Shotton and hopefully will have another plaque added as and when we can get one. In any case he will be on flintshirewarmemorials.com. Regards, Mavis
     
  19. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Convoy SL.82
    Departed Freetown on 24 July 1941.
    Arrived Liverpool on 15 August 1941.

    LLANGOLLEN (Br) 21 5,056 1928 W. A. Prod

    Its cargo is shown on the Hague database as W A Prod - maybe you could find out what that was, it might help you answer some CWGC questions

    TD

    SL convoys - Wikipedia
    Freetown was little more than a protected anchorage with no shore facilities. The town had been established as a resettlement area for freed slaves, with negligible European development. Convoy operations were coordinated by a naval staff aboard the elderly Union-Castle Liner Edinburgh Castle. Edinburgh Castle and a hospital ship anchored as far offshore as practicable to avoid the unhealthy conditions ashore. Tropical diseases were endemic in the oppressive heat and humidity. Local fresh water supplies were polluted. Refueling coal from the United Kingdom and oil from the West Indies was held and distributed afloat in detained merchant ships.

    You could I suppose express the view that the military knew of the problems and thereby exposed non combatants to this risk, even though they tried to minimise them - its a thought
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  20. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Thanks TD, I will convey your message to the CWGC as you are right and the additional information may sway them. Thanks. Mavis
     

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