Japanese Atrocities.

Though German POWs in Soviet captivity did have a very hard time and thousands died, there's no doubt that they got a light treatment in comparisson to what they had dispensed to the Slav 'sub-humans'.


"light treatment"? Really? Ask the remaining survivors of the German 6th Army if they think they were dispensed 'light treatment' in the Russian camps. I think roughly 100,000 were captured and only about 5000 made it back to Germany, some not getting back until the early to mid 1950's. Obviously the Russians wanted to kill off most of the Germans years after hostilities were over. I wouldn't consider that kind of treatment 'light' in any sense of the word.

I'm a noobie to the forum, first time here! Great site, and it's a pleasure to be here with all of you!

 

Originally posted by Stich@Apr 1 2005, 12:29 PM
Though German POWs in Soviet captivity did have a very hard time and thousands died, there's no doubt that they got a light treatment in comparisson to what they had dispensed to the Slav 'sub-humans'.


"light treatment"? Really? Ask the remaining survivors of the German 6th Army if they think they were dispensed 'light treatment' in the Russian camps. I think roughly 100,000 were captured and only about 5000 made it back to Germany, some not getting back until the early to mid 1950's. Obviously the Russians wanted to kill off most of the Germans years after hostilities were over. I wouldn't consider that kind of treatment 'light' in any sense of the word.

I'm a noobie to the forum, first time here! Great site, and it's a pleasure to be here with all of you!
[post=32757]Quoted post[/post]
Hiya Stich and pleased to make your acquaintance!! Now as to your post

I think we can agree that there were terrible atrocities on both sides during the war. But the Russians never started out with the intention of the extermination of an entire race due to their supposed "inferiority". Sure enough they took their revenge and some. They destroyed the Prussian State as an entity and looted, raped and pillaged. Although the German prisoners were treated terribly (Read Hans Von Lucks memoirs, Panzer Commander for an insight into it) there is no comparison in terms of how the Germans treated the Russian Prisoners of War. Only about 5000 of 6th Army made it back to Germany. I'm not sure that as many Russians lived to see their homeland after being captured by the Germans. The German 6th Army got what it desereved at Stalingrad; Ask any Pole or Russian about life under German Occupation. I know that two wrongs dont make a right but really what did the Wehrmacht expect? They treated Russian Prisoners harshly yet they were appalled when they werent treated according to international law. I'm not defending the Russians here, god knows they have enough to answer for themselves. But to try and claim that the Germans deserved better treatment is really a non-starter. The Eastern Front was a meat grinder for both sides and Stalingrad truly was the graveyard of the Wehrmacht.

 

Hi all,

This following picture is from my
Granddads papers. Its of an Allied
flyer just about to be executed,
God rest his sole and may the
executioner rest in hell.

I put this picture on my website and
decided to take it off in the end, due
to the the image evoking such a response
from Australian and New Zealand veterans
who found the image too upsetting.
11 emails in total! This goes to show
that feelings amoung some of the veterans
of these times against their old enemies
is as strong as ever and we should
respect that.


This is part of the caption attached to the
picture.
============================
Within in a split second of the camera
recording the scene, he was dead. He
died alone, with his arms tied down to his sides
with rope. He died when a Jap officer in lust
and hatred swung a samurai sword and
severed his neck at a stroke.
He was entitled to the protection granted
to men taken in war-a man whose simple
rights are respected by all civilsed peoples.
In spite of this they led him out, blindfolded
him and butchered him-with a circle
of grinning yellow monkeys looking on.
This is the enemy we now fight. An enemy
without pity-with the bug of madness
in his blood.
Look long on this picture-and DO NOT FORGET."

This picture is an enlargement made from a
snap shot found in the wallet of a dead Jap.
It was creased and bore signs of having been
much handled.
==============================

 

And the Nips talk about peace memorials and the germans were never Nazis.

 

Originally posted by kieron hill@Apr 2 2005, 10:03 PM
Hi all,

This following picture is from my
Granddads papers. Its of an Allied
flyer just about to be executed,
God rest his sole and may the
executioner rest in hell.

I put this picture on my website and
decided to take it off in the end, due
to the the image evoking such a response
from Australian and New Zealand veterans
who found the image too upsetting.
11 emails in total! This goes to show
that feelings amoung some of the veterans
of these times against their old enemies
is as strong as ever and we should
respect that.


This is part of the caption attached to the
picture.
============================
Within in a split second of the camera
recording the scene, he was dead. He
died alone, with his arms tied down to his sides
with rope. He died when a Jap officer in lust
and hatred swung a samurai sword and
severed his neck at a stroke.
He was entitled to the protection granted
to men taken in war-a man whose simple
rights are respected by all civilsed peoples.
In spite of this they led him out, blindfolded
him and butchered him-with a circle
of grinning yellow monkeys looking on.
This is the enemy we now fight. An enemy
without pity-with the bug of madness
in his blood.
Look long on this picture-and DO NOT FORGET."

This picture is an enlargement made from a
snap shot found in the wallet of a dead Jap.
It was creased and bore signs of having been
much handled.
==============================
[post=32815]Quoted post[/post]

The picture was published in the book, Knights of Budshido by Lord Russell of liverpool. from memory it was of a Aussie F/lt. I do not have a copy to hand but I seem to remember that it included information about the actual execution.

The irony is that the officer who carried out the execution no doubt considered it to be an honour to do so.

let us not forget the photos of the japanese army using civilians as live targets on their rifle ranges.

there is aslo the activities of Unit 731.

 

Morse I am glad you mentioned Unit 731. My wife bought me the book when it first came out in New Zealand in about 1989/90. It was not commented on much here and what little there was consisted of an almost, very bad but a long time ago attitude.
A Kiwi who was a Jap POW tried to show the public what went on and even got some Jap on TV who denied it all and just talked about planting blossom trees in peace parks he could create in NZ.
Unit 731 should always be mentioned in the same breath as SS, Concentration Camps, Mengle and other such abominations.
Could you and others offer an opinion on why Jap war crimes take a distant second to those of the Germans.
Unit 731 should be required reading for every person with an interest in military history.

 

Originally posted by Kaiser@Mar 27 2005, 03:05 PM
During the war, Germany's war crimes are shown throughout the world. Yet Japan's war crimes are mainly kept secret. In fact, before the book, The Rape of Nanking, Westerners didn't know much about the Japanese war crimes. Now, I ask you, were the Japanese war crimes worse then Germany's, or better?

One thing to note is that Japan, till today, makes no note of their own war crimes, and still maintains the belief that they were the victims of WWII (nuke). Their text book teaches how they liberated Asia from Western colonialism, which, IMHO is true to an extent.  One reason why so many Asian countries refuse to allow Japan UN Security Council is because of their war crimes and their refusal to admit them.
[post=32593]Quoted post[/post]

The atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese, like those perpetrated by the Germans should never be forgotten. What occurred should be acknowledged in all Japanese schools. If you can explain to me how you 'liberate' people by murdering half the populace and putting the rest into forced labour I would very much appreciate it. 'Liberation' was never the intention.

The photograph of the execution posted by Keiron was originally thought to be of an allied flier. It is in fact not. It is actually a photograph of NX143314 Sergeant Leonard George Siffleet of M Special Unit, Australian Imperial Force. Executed as a POW 24 October 1943. May he Rest in Peace. Lest We Forget.

http://www.awm.gov.au/people/1078334.asp

Summary: Aitape, New Guinea. 24 October 1943. A photograph found on the body of a dead Japanese soldier showing NX143314 Sergeant (Sgt) Leonard G. Siffleet of "M" Special Unit, wearing a blindfold and with his arms tied, about to be beheaded with a sword by Yasuno Chikao. The execution was ordered by Vice Admiral Kamada, the commander of the Japanese Naval Forces at Aitape. Sgt Siffleet was captured with Private (Pte) Pattiwahl and Pte Raharin, Ambonese members of the Netherlands East Indies Forces, whilst engaged in reconnaissance behind the Japanese lines. Yasuno Chikao died before the end of the war.
Rgds


Tim

 

Excellent points here that cut to the heart of the matter. Every country has had to come to grips with it's past sins of one sort or another. But the Japanese refuse in large measure to acknowledge wrongdoing in their warcrimes. The recent anti-Japanese protests in China are a direct result of that.

 

Blackblue, thank you for posting the identity of the two men in that photograph. I always wondered who that poor guy getting the chop was. I thought he was an aviator, too. Obviously, he was a commando on Ambon. I guess the Japanese decided to consider him a spy, which he was not. I have to find out where Sgt. Silfleet is buried. I am glad to hear that his killer is also a World War II casualty, and not alive to earn a pension.

 

Hi David,
I think he was actually captured near Salamaua not on Ambon. He is recorded on the Lae Memorial. Obviously his body was not recovered after the war.

Rgds

Tim

Name: SIFFLEET, LEONARD GEORGE
Initials: L G
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Australian Infantry
Unit Text: A.I.F. 'M' Special Unit
Age: 27
Date of Death: 24/10/1943
Service No: NX143314
Additional information: Son of Leo Vincent and Alma Elizabeth Siffleet, of Gunnedah, New South Wales.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 2.
Cemetery: LAE MEMORIAL

 

All this talk about the Japanese failing to confess their warcrimes are untrue. In fact, if you look close enough, the Japanese government has publically apologized for their army's aggressive actions towards civilians a total of 17 times.

As a Japanese person, from my viewpoint, Japan had no other choice but to kill the Chinese. In fact, Japanese troops were all given three orders to follow to conduct themselves in China:
"Kill all, Burn all, Loot all."

Now, this was not because the Japanese wanted the European powers in China to acknowledge their power, it was because of the Japanese frustration of the standstill against the Japanese which had been going on far too long for them to be happy about.

The Chinese were 'forced,' to take surprise attack against a common and large foe. They cloaked themselves as regular farmers, and after passing a small band of Japanese troops, they would draw their concealed weapons and fire at them.

In retaliation, the Japanese commited all this ruthless slaughter. If the Chinese had fought "with honor," and their troops did not pretend to be regular civilians, the Japanese would not of had to resort to such brutal tactics.

Japanese soldiers wore green uniforms with a cotton cap with a star symbol on it. In contrast, a Chinese soldier had a hidden firearm, a pitchfork, and a farmer's outfit. There was no way to differentiate between a 'real,' farmer and an enemy soldier.

Now, what the world fails to recognize is that the Japanese government did NOT issue an order to commit the warcrimes. The local Japanese generals at the puppet-state Manchukuo gave out the order, despite Tokyo's demands to halt their aggressive movements. Tokyo wanted to preserve peace with their conquered subjects, with their famous slogan, "Asia for the Asiatics,"

Bear in mind that the Japanese soldiers were mentally very tired against their cleverly hidden foe, and, most of them were supposed to be able to be relieved of duty after two years of service. However, with the standstill, their service-time continued to be extended. Of course, as young men, they would become very sexually driven, and combined with the relentless though of being killed by an unseen Chinese enemy, this is why the entire mass-killing of the Chinese occured.

I don't intend to say what the Japanese did was right, but, I want to make three vital points:
1) Tokyo never authorized the "mass-killing" of Chinese, instead, the local generals issued the order despite Tokyo's strict demands to stop.
2) Under the conditions against the Japanese soldiers, they didn't have much of a choice, to eliminate a cloaked foe, they would have to become aggressive with local civlians.
3) As of modern date, Japan HAS publically announced an apology for war crimes 17 times. What the riot in China was about was mainly revolving around Japan's admittance to the whole UN ordeal, along with the Japanese prime minister praying at the Yasukuni shrine, where dead Japanese military personnel are praised.

 

1) Tokyo never authorized the "mass-killing" of Chinese, instead, the local generals issued the order despite Tokyo's strict demands to stop.

You mean that, despite the strong discilpine and the Bushido code of the time, Japanese officers disobbeyed or ignored direct superior orders?

2) Under the conditions against the Japanese soldiers, they didn't have much of a choice, to eliminate a cloaked foe, they would have to become aggressive with local civlians

To state that the Chinese didn't fight with 'honour' is insulting to them and to every person involved in resistance movements through the war. The Chinese as well, had little option. There simply was no 'Army' to fight the Japanese tête-à-tête, and, had there been one, it had little chances against the Japanese Army. Therefore, the Chinese, as did the Yugoslavians, made the right choice in fighting a guerrilla warfare (which, by the way, was incredibly effective).

And attrocities are NEVER justified by any means. The multiple raping of a woman in Berlin cannot be justified by the vengance of a Soviet soldier who saw his village burnt to the ground by the Germans.

 

Hello Ryobreak...your not another individual we all know well operating under a pseudonym are you!?

The Japanese were forced to massacre the Chinese? So just what in blazes were they doing there in the first place!!!??? Can you provide some evidence of your statement that the Japanese Government was in no way responsible for the deaths in China? Last time I checked a couple of rogue generals did NOT just decide off their own bats to galavant into China and massacre millions of innocent people for fun!!

Yes, there have been a series of apologies made since the 50th Anniversary of the end of WW2. These apologies largely relate to the suffering of the people of Asia whose countries were occupied by the Japanese. However, there has been very little said by way of apology in respect to the members of the allied armed forces who were victims of war crimes and atrocities.....Australians, New Zealanders, Dutch, American and British amongst others. If you want to read more I suggest you start with 'The Bridge and Parit Salong' by Lynnette Ramsay Silver.

I have nothing whatsoever against the Japanese people, they are some of the friendliest and most honourable people I have met. I have however witnessed the disbelief of Japanese I know when they have inquired about the war and have been confronted with the truth. Most of them simply had no idea what really occurred during WW2.

I have a number of good friends and colleagues who are either Japanese, or have taught in Japanese schools. The atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese Armed Forces have gone largely unrecognised since the end of the war and they still are today. The TRUTH about WW2 should be part of the curriculum of every school and college in Japan. The fact is that at present it is NOT. When we speak of apologies the largest part of aplogising is accepting the truth.

I don't know you Ryobreak. I salute you for speaking your mind and imparting what you believe. But perhaps its the case that you have been a victim of the system....and like many others you are unfortunately a victim of an incomplete curriculum.

Rgds

Tim

 

I also have yet to see the Japanese government and the private companies that ruthlessly starved and exploited POWs pay them compensation or cover their immense medical treatments for illnesses that are purely the result of their years in captivity.

 

No, I have learned from the "American curriculum," I was born and raised in the United States, and have myself visited many sites of the Pacific Theater to see the damage done firsthand (atleast, of what was preserved).

It IS true the the Japanese government HQ in Tokyo did NOT authorize the aggression. I've read many articles on this, and attached below is an excert from a Time-Life book, written by Arthur Zich:

"[...] The so called Kwantung Army, which since 1905 had been guarding Japanese business interests at points scattered through the 440,000-square-mile northern Chinese province of Manchuria, simply siezed control. The world was shocked- and more significantly, so was official Tokyo. The Kwantaung Army officers had seized Manchuria without any orders whatsoever from the government, and proceeded to rule it as an Army satrapy. Belatedly ordered to stop, the officers ignored the directive. Whereupon, after a considerable amount of sputtering, the government recognized the Army's fait accompli, dubbed the acquired territory 'Manchukuo' and encouraged people to emigrate there." (p.20)

At first when I stumbled on articles that much of the aggression in China were not authorized by Tokyo, I was puzzled, since, I thought Japanese generals would never disobey their superiors. This, apparently, proved untrue.

To answer Blackblue's question, I have been educated both from an American and Japanese school, as well as Chinese, and Spanish, which allowed me to analyze much of the events without being stuck to one-side. However, looking at the teetering sympathy shown on these boards towards the allies, along with many people here believing that the axis was purely evil, hopefully this comment will enlighten some people that Tokyo, in fact, did not authorize a decent percentage of the atrocities that happened in China.

 

Thanks for the reply Ryobreak,
I would be interested to see what references Mr Zich used, as this version flies in the face of everything I have read on the subject. Do you know is there anything in Japanese official records covering this? I would like to learn more if possible. Certainly, there may have been isolated incidents in which officers in theatre acted outside their authority, but surely the Japanese Government must share the blame for what occurred afterwards? 1905 was a long time before the likes of Nanking occurred.

Certainly my opinion has been formed somewhat by what I have read in allied versions of events. Unfortunately, as Napoleon said, the victors write the history...do they not? As far as war crimes go my principal area of interest is not what happened in China, but the attrocities perpetrated against allied POW in the Pacific Theatre. My views here have not been entirely based on what I have read, and I have read a lot. I have actually heard innumerable first hand accounts from survivors. The fact these attrocities go unmentioned in Japanese schools are what I feel needs to be rectified.

Rgds

Tim

 

Well, the Japanese text books are not trying to "hide," Japanese atrocities, but rather, the entire war in general. After General MacArthur banished the militaristic motives of Japan, the Japanese have then become completely obsessed with improving their country economically- the big Japanese companies like Toyota, Honda, Sony, Canon, etc help speak for this matter.

The text books in Japan don't even mention the Battle of Midway. They usually point out Pearl Harbor, a brief caption of the American Offensive, the Atomic Bomb, and the surrender of Japan. In general, many Japanese squirm away from the thought of war- and, recent generations have become completely isolated from it. Its like "a life without war," and, Japanese teaching curriculums have tried to eliminate much of military history, in part, because the Japanese have now become highly peace-loving people.

~To speak of modern times~
Americans should have seen the riots and heated citizens when George Bush asked Japan to send forces to Iraq. Lets look at two facts. MarArthur said Japan should NEVER place any of its military personell on foreign soil- and now, Bush wanted that completely reversed. If people thought Kerry was a flipflopper, then it really comes as no surprise if Japanese feel this way towards Bush, or rather, America in general.

China, I would have to say, is more "jealous," of Japan, rather then angry at it for the atrocities in WWII. The current economical power of China is equivalent to that of Japan in 1960. Why does Japan, a small cluster of islands forming a nation in the Asian continent, have the world's second strongest economy? This is quite simple. The facts are, we spend minimal amounts of funds on military matters, while for many other countries, they spend much of taxes and other such affairs to improve their armed forces. Japan, being restricted from having any sort of offensive military, has been enjoying the luxury of spending their money to improve other things instead for the past half-century.

I would also like to take note of this,
The Chinese are currently under the progress of creating a large underwater armada. What they are planning, no one can foreshadow, but, as a Japanese person feeling hostilities from a neighboring country, it would make sense that if China wanted to attack Japan, submarines would be an exceptionally good answer. Of course, the UN would not stay silent if such an event were to occur. But, when America attacked Iraq despite heavy opposition from other countries, it still inititated its attack, while the rest of the countries watched helplessly.

If China became the #1 World power, who would stop them from attacking Japan? Japan's society relies on the merchant ships which passes through its ports. If the Chinese submarines attacked the Japanese merchant fleet, our nation would go to ruin.

 

I would be interested to see what references Mr Zich used .....

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?q...s*listing*title

http://stonebooks.com/archives/000319.shtml

 

Thanks guys,
Ahhh...I didn't put two and two together there for a while. Time Life hey? I take it they are not referenced?

Rgds

Tim

 

Its basics for anyone who read about the influence of the worldwide depression in Japan, it went from the formation of Manchukuo to many assassinations of people who believed war was not in the best interest for Japan. This is why Isoroku Yamamoto stationed himself atop a ship- to escape the assasins- since he highly believed to win against America seemed quite doubtful.