IWM NA 7138 - Pz IV knocked out at Salerno

Hi all,

I'm researching the action in which these two Pz IVs of (I believe) HG Div were knocked out at Salerno in September 1943. I'm wondering if anyone can make out what vehicle is lying upside down to the right.



I think these might be three Pz IVs which would match some information in British war diaries. I also think I might have identified the stretch of road (the SP 76 - Via Picentia - south of Campigliano facing north. This was sector of 167 Bde - I'm leaning towards 7 Ox & Bucks supported by Shermans of 40 RTR and A/Tk guns of 58 A Tk Regt RA.



I'm looking for any other photos which might show a bit more of the road/background scene to confirm or, just as likely, send me off to look again!

Regards

Tom

 

My interest in this engagement started with these this entry in a 10 Corps Intelligence Summary (WO169/8593):



Map ref 733300 is just under the cross here (if my boy scout map reading badge skills are still working - "along the hall (733 along) and up the stairs (300 up)"!



I've had a look at Google Earth and it looks to my tired old eyess that the road junctions north of the cross match this modern aerial view:



Does that look right to anyone else/

Regards

Tom

 

There is, of course, some confusion in the British war diaries as to who and when these tanks were knocked out.

This is from HQ 167 Brigade (WO169/8966) and seems to line up pretty well.

15 September 1943

1850 Situation 7 Oxf. Bucks left hand coy rather obscure owing to infiltration. Enemy tanks shooting up infantry.
1910 Brig. Firth returned from fwd posns 8 RF.
1900 7 Oxf. Bucks dealing with a pl enemy infantry at 733302.
1900 RA reports 3 enemy tanks knocked out on rd 7333 and CAMPIGLIANO 7331. No tanks attempted to proceed further.

But then in the 7 Oxf. Bucks diary (WO169/10278) we find:

15 September 1943 729286
[...]
1700 “Stand to”. Enemy tanks forming up on ‘A’ Coy’s front. Enemy tanks and infty attack on ‘A’ Coy front and over run 8 Pl posns near rd. Our tanks proceeded to engage enemy.
2100 Signaller from ‘A’ Coy reports enemy tanks penetrated through to road and digging in so near to Coy HQ that communication other than runner was impossible as talking would expose their position to the enemy.
2340 Reinforcements taken to posns behind ‘A’ Coy.

16 September 1943 729286
[...]
0600 ‘A’ Coy report enemy tanks withdraw in night in direction Mango.
0710 Enemy tanks reported 737315.
[...]
1530 Enemy infty infiltrating on ‘A’ Coy area – MG fire. Enemy TCV shelled and set on fire area 695335.
1545 Enemy tanks reported areas 736309, 736311 – 1 tank knocked out by Regtl A/Tk guns area 735308.
[...]
1945 Enemy tanks firing from 733315.

17 September 1943 729286
[...]
0725 OC ‘A’ Coy at Regtl HQ – line “dis” – 3 Mk IV tanks destroyed on Coy front.

And in 40 RTR war diary (WO169/9370) they report:

15 September 1943
[...]
730300 “A” Sqn. moved up in support of the Ox. and Bucks. Regt. at 1615 hrs. “C” Sqn. took over “A” Sqn’s counter-attack role, moving to the area of the aerodrome 764259. “C” Sqn were ordered to stand by to go to the assistance of “A” Sqn. if required.
[...]
Nos. 1 and 2 Troops of “A” Sqn. advanced up the FAIANO road as far as the infantry F.D.ls. where they found two A/Tank gun crews acting as infantry, and a platoon of Ox. and Bucks. The tanks were line ahead as the country was not suitable for deployment. The enemy were reported to be infiltrating down the valley at 734304.
The situation was very confused and precarious. After contacting the A/Tank gunners and the infantry and arranging a plan, the tanks withdrew about a mile. Just after last light No. 1 Troop was again ordered forward and No. 2 Troop instructed to cover the road from 738290 where they spent a quiet night, except for some enemy infantry who were endeavouring to infiltrate. These were engaged by two troops and withdrew.
[...]

16 September 1943
“A” Sqn. had a quiet morning except for shelling on the forward positions. Nos. 1 and 2 Troops took up positions on the MANGO road; No. 3 Troop on the FAIANO road at 749304; No. 4 Troop in PONTECAGNANO and Sqn. HQ Troop at 722280.
At about 1500 hrs very heavy shelling commenced from all sides onto No. 1 Troop who withdrew 200 yards and then shelled the enemy gun positions, silencing one gun. When the shelling had died down, No. 1 Troop went forward again and was informed that an enemy tank had been knocked out at 735305. Another tank then drew up behind the damaged tank and this was engaged by No. 1 Troop and the A/Tank gunners and knocked out. Half an hour later an infantry patrol went out and reported two Mark IV tanks and two armoured recce cars damaged. The infantry were then instructed to blow up these vehicles, but they were unable to do so. No. 3 Troop in the meantime, put down an HE shoot on FILETTA and then M.G. on the slopes of the castle feature just in front of the British F.D.Ls. The Germans withdrew. No. 2 Troop who had relieved No. 1 Troop at 734304 had a quiet time until 2300 hrs when sounds of tracks were heard coming down the road. It was obvious that the enemy was trying to recover the two tanks. No. 2 Troop then opened fire with AP and HE, setting on fire the two damaged tanks and knocking out a third tank.

And then nothing relevant on 17 Sep 43.

So Bde HQ diary is adamant that the 3 Pz IVs were knocked out on the early evening of 15 Sep; 7 Ox & Bucks diary is somewhat vague but agrees that there were 3 tanks knocked out by early 17 Sep; and 40 RTR suggest that two tks were initially knocked out during the afternoon of 16 Sep with a third in the same area later that evening.

Regards

Tom

 

These medal citations for anti-tank gunners of 58 Anti-Tank Regiment may also be relevant:





Gunner Last's citation is supported by the war diary for 58 A Tk Regt (WO169/9618) which records:

15 September 1943
325 Bty put into action. 1600 hrs tanks reported on road 732303. 231 knocked out 2 Mk IV specials, 325 knocked out 1 Mk IV special at 1800 yds.

16 September 1943
I Tp 325 taken out of action & moved to new location on orders of C.O. 2 of 231 Btys 17-prs overrun. 231 k.o.. 3 Mk IV's & 1 armd car.

So possibly the 15th September or the 16th September.

Regards

Tom

 

The great news is that there are pretty good German sources for these engagements - I'll post those up tomorrow. They reflect HG armour taking hits on 15th Sep but suggest the three Pz IVs in the photo were knocked out on the afternoon of the 16th.

Regards

Tom

 

Looking on the IWM site again (but a bit more carefully) I also found this photograph:



The caption on the back states that they were knocked out by 231 Bty of 58 A Tk Regt. Frustratingly the photograph is not dated and doesn't seem to relate to those coming before or after numerically.

Regards

Tom

 

And from the "German side of the hill":

Firstly these details taken from CAB146/34 (which is a narrative covering German Field operations in Italy in Sep 1943 produced by the Cabinet Office's Historical Section using translated German documents:

16 September 1943
...
1500 hours H.G. Division’s armoured group moved off from the road-fork 3 km south of Pezzano, with 8 coy/Pz Regt H.G. in the van. After an advance of only 800 metres down the road, the leading 3 Pz IVs were destroyed by anti-tank gun fire from ‘numerous guns’ which the enemy had installed on a flanking hill. The infantry of III/129 ‘got lost again’ and with no artillery support the German tanks could advance no further, particularly as the road was blocked by their own shot-up AFVs. (2) The group however managed to hang on where it was until it was ordered back to the ‘old line’ in the evening. (3)
...
--------

(2) WD II/Pz Regt H.G. 16.9 – 31.12.43 (8A – 294).
(3) WD I/Pz Regt H.G. (Same number).

Peculiarly though, for what sounds like a pretty intense engagement, I could only find records of two German fatalities from the HG panzer regiment and one from II Bn/Pz Gren Regt 1 HG on 16 Sep 43. These are:



I'll check for the days before and after next to see if there are any 8 Coy fatalities perhaps recorded incorrectly. And of course, the two Gefreiters from 1 Coy Pz Regt HG may have been attached to 8 Coy during the operation.

Yet again, therefore, despite the plentiful primary sources for this small but important engagement, there remains in my mind some doubt about the exact sequence of events.

More to follow as I come across it.

Regards

Tom

 

The German casualty cards have significant gaps together with transcription errors or omissions. I do correct them as I come across them.

I do get annoyed that, what should be great resources that are being made available by ancestry and FMP, are hobbled by the 'single record access' model they implement. For example, you can't export a set of records to csv/Excel, you can't search on a unit.

Great thread btw.

I'd be inclined to go this the RTR series of events...anecdotally I've noticed their reports on armoured clashes and events are far more accurate than the infantry. As are Anti-Tank Regiment WDs.

 

I was tending that way too, but then found this extract in the war diary of Pz-Abt. 103 in Norbert Szamveber's book about the unit in Italy:

p.28

On the 15th of September, in the afternoon, Panzer-Regiment 'Hermann Goring' resumed its attack toward Pontecagno [sic]. Having reached its objective, the assault guns were to secure the settlement while the armoured combat vehicles linked up with the 16. Panzer-Division eastwards at Battibaglia [sic]. We provided cover with all the assault guns for the attack towards south-east, operating as artillery from a hill. However the attack ground to a halt because, on the highway - and this proved to be extremely serpentine - 3 km south of Filetta, only three armoured fighting vehicles at most could be deployed from the whole regiment and they were stopped in their tracks by enemy AT-

p.29

guns. The first three combat vehicles were knocked out by the enemy employing a new tactic: they set up the AT guns heavily camouflaged to the left and right of the road, let the armoured fighting vehicles approach to within 40 m at a bend in the road then, having fired one or two rounds, the crews of the AT guns fled headlong to nowhere, leaving all their equipment behind...

Regards

Tom

 

There are also several medal citations for members of the 7 Oxford and Bucks which make clear that there were heavy engagements on both 15 and 16 September 1943.



I'm hoping to get to Kew in the next month or so. Hopefully I get dig up some other sources for this engagement - although I'm not sure they will make the sequence of events any clearer in my rather simple mind.

Regards

Tom

 

Tom,

What files are you looking for? I may already have them.

Regards,
Gary.

 

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the offer, I was going to take a look at:

WO169/13692 - 71 Coy Queens who I think were attached to 7 Ox & Bucks from 16 Sep onwards, and
WO169/10679 - 270 Fd Coy RE who were attached to 167 Inf Bde from 46 Div and might be the REs mentioned in the 10 Corps Int Sum I quoted in the first post.

Regards

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

Looks like it was 270 Field Company although the first grid reference doesn't quite match the one above. That being said the second entry does not confirm they were the same tanks.

16th September 2000 Lieutenant Harker and 8 ORs from Company HQ went out to place demolition charges on tanks knocked out at 734305. Enemy working on recovery and they could not get near.

17th September 1800 Lieutenant Harker's party went out after tanks and succeeded in demolishing one thus blocking road as required.





Regards,
Gary.

 

Gary,

Thanks, that matches up very nicely with the comment in the 10 Corps Int Summary so unless there were other sappers out and about with demolition charges that evening at least that's than one question answered.

Regards

Tom

 

I've checked the other divisional engineer WDs and 271 Field Company was in the area but laying anti-personnel mines.

 

Hi Gary,

Thanks, much appreciated. 271 Fd Coy were certainly employed on a wide range of jobs during the period. It’s a shame they don’t get much space in general military history.

Regards

Tom

 

I stumbled across this PW interrogation report in a 46 Div Intelligence Summary which I think matches this engagement:

WO169/8767 - 46 Div G Branch war diary September 1943 - Appendix H2

46 Div Intelligence Summary No. 16

19 Sep 43

Based on information received up to
2359 hrs 18 Sep 43.

[...]

Identifications:

6 Coy 129 PGR (1 man) )
7 Coy 129 PGR (3 men) ) All on OXF & BUCKS
8 Coy 129 PGR (2 men) ) front

5, 6 and 7 Coys 129 PGR

[...]

All three PW from 7 Coy came originally from Marsch Bn 207 which was formed in WANDEN in Jun 43. Arrived in ITALY 23 Aug. Reported as reinforcement to present unit 30 Aug. 3 – 10 Sep exercises CASANOVA area. 10 Sep told NAPLES in British hands. 13 Sep arrived rest area caves 5½ kilometres from SALERNO on AVELLINO rd.

The attack 15 Sep. Rode on tks. Moved via S MANGO. Plan was to capture SALERNO from PONTECAGANANO end. Before attack told the British were already re-embarking. Attack put in with 20 tks (NOTE: doubtful total, also doubted if PW knew difference between tk and SP gun) and 160 men. Casualties 10 tks and 28 of the 40 men in prisoners’ pl. 16 Sep attacked again. Further heavy casualties: number unknown.

PW stated that morale was very low – so that all the non-German elements (PW were bilingual ALSATIONS) were hoping for an opportunity to escape (possibly exaggerated). PW also stated that many in the unit were kept fighting only by the propaganda put out by Germany to the effect that if Germany should be defeated, all Germans would be split up and sent to working parties to rebuild shattered cities such as STALINGRAD.

Regards

Tom

 

perhaps of help:

source; File:Men of the 2-6th Queens's Regiment advance past a pair of burning German PzKpfw IV tank in the Salerno area, Italy, 22 September 1943. NA7137.jpg - Wikipedia



source: ITALIENFELDZUG - German Tanks and Vehicles 1943-1945 Vol. 3 (English)

 

Hi Itdan,

Thanks, I've always wanted to take a look at those volumes. From the German sources I've found I'm pretty sure the Pz IVs were from 8 Coy, HG Div but the author seems to have used similar British sources to inform their captions.

Regards

Tom

 

A further snip from 46 Division Int Sum which aligns well with the details above from 40th RTR war diary:

5. General Information.

(a) The following report has been received:-

“I have today examined three Mark IV Specials belonging to HERMANN GOERING Division which were knocked out by 6 pdr and 75 mm fire at approximately 734308. All three tks “brewed-up” and the interesting thing is that the heat has completely split the armour plating in some places from top to bottom and in others has left it starred. I have not in my previous experience seen armour of any AFV so completely damaged by fire, and it suggests that the armour is of a rather poor quality.
sgd J.L. FINEGAN
Lt Col.
Commanding 40th Royal Tank Regt.”

I'm not sure what he would have meant by "starred" though - anyone have an idea on that?

Regards

Tom