Ivor Godwin-Monck: Casualty 6/12/40

Discussion in 'War Grave Photographs' started by CL1, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    I haven't seen his service number recorded in this thread - but attached is the registration card spelling out his full name and number.

    I was curious to see if he popped up or if he actually served under another variation of his name.

    1325079
     

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  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Hello Dave sorry yes that is the number

    regards
    Clive
     
  3. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Another WOFTAM - his number doesn't show up in a search of the Flight Global RAF casualty reports from late 1940 / early 1941 (sometime shortly later they stopped putting the service numbers in the report).

    The pages are scanned and rely on OCR programs to read the text - sometimes if the text is wonky or there is a crease then whole lines don't show up in the search function.

    So to be 100% thorough I got a list of names of other RAF deaths from that date (06/12/1940) who are commemorated in the UK. Three blokes are on Runnymede that died flying with 254SQN and another couple died in the crash of a 53SQN aircraft.

    That left 4 AC1s, two of whom were mentioned in the FG of 2 January 1941 - one as Killed on Active Service (KOAS) and one as Died on Active Service (DOAS). The other two were mentioned in the FG of 9 January 1941 as KOAS.

    The KOAS for 2 January had his name mis-spelt in the casualty report which gave me some hope that the bloke we are looking for might be recorded but with some sort of variation of his name.

    But after trawling through the complete casualty reports for those two editions of the FG I didn't come across anything that resembled Godwin-Monck.
     
  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Hello Dave

    many thanks

    CWGC confirmed they dont have him

    I have given them the plot location and DC,they have now forwarded to MOD to gain acceptance on CWGC database.


    regards
    Clive
     
  5. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Sorry folks, haven't been keeping up with this one and haven't managed to confirm, but my best theory so far - and I haven't got over to Chester to check the archives, is that he was a victim of either an air raid which took place on 29th November 1940 in which bombs were dropped on a TB hospital called Barrowmore Sanatorium with 20 patients and staff killed - perhaps dying later? Or he was killed in the air raid on the city of 5th December - more likely but harder to find evidence of. He isn't in the civilian casualty list for the city though, which leads me to believe he was in uniform or certainly not seen as a civilian casualty - I can't find any evidence of deaths in raids on RAF/aircraft facilities in the area for the dates. Will do my best to get over to the library asap.
     
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  6. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Brian thank you

    DC states died due to war action.
    anything you come up with would be great


    regards
    Clive
     
  7. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Received from CWGC


    I am writing regarding the possible commemoration of Aircraftman 2nd class I F C Godwin-Monck.

    The documentary evidence you kindly provided was submitted to the MOD for their consideration. However they have confirmed that he is not entitled to commemoration by the Commission.

    After consulting his records, the Air Historic Branch concluded the following:

    “He was discharged from the Royal Air Force with an illness which was prevalent in this country at the time and was not attributable solely to his service, which was only in the United Kingdom. The statement on the headstone that he ‘died by enemy action’ and the statement on the Death Certificate that he died ‘due to war operations’ are therefore both incorrect.”

    We regret we were unable to assist you further in this instance.
     
  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I wonder if the CWGC is being a little hasty here? They appear to be ignoring the death certificate.

    That he had been discharged from the RAF can be taken as fact, also that he was ill and it seems likely from the description that he suffered from TB which makes Brian's post #25 particularly relevant.

    If he died a few days later of injuries sustained from an air raid then surely he should be noted as Civilian War Dead ?

    I can imagine that his family regarded him as a serviceman and his occupation may have been given alongside his former service number but the cause of death will have been given by a Doctor and is surely the legal record ?

    What further substantiation of cause of death could they ask for...or are the civilian lists no longer open for correction ?
     
  9. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I can imagine that his family regarded him as a serviceman and his occupation may have been given alongside his former service number but the cause of death will have been given by a Doctor and is surely the legal record ?

    What further substantiation of cause of death could they ask for...or are the civilian lists no longer open for correction ?

    I agree.

    Could be one for the "In from the Cold" people to give their opinion.
     
  10. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Hello Rich/Geoff
    thank you for your comments

    regards
    Clive
     
  11. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    Only way forward with this one is to ask that he be regarded as civilian war dead due to the fact that his DC shows death due to war operations; do we have details of enemy air action where he died
     
  12. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Hello Chris

    I have done and await the reply

    thank you

    regards
    Clive
     
  13. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Received from CWGC


    I am writing regarding the possible commemoration of Aircraftman 2nd class I F C Godwin-Monck.

    The documentary evidence you kindly provided was submitted to the MOD for their consideration. However they have confirmed that he is not entitled to commemoration by the Commission.

    After consulting his records, the Air Historic Branch concluded the following:

    “He was discharged from the Royal Air Force with an illness which was prevalent in this country at the time and was not attributable solely to his service, which was only in the United Kingdom. The statement on the headstone that he ‘died by enemy action’ and the statement on the Death Certificate that he died ‘due to war operations’ are therefore both incorrect.”

    We regret we were unable to assist you further in this instance.

    How incredible that someone working for the MoD is prepared to refute the written evidence provided by a death certificate! This is the definitive document they ask for before they will even consider a non-commemorated casualty for adding to the official register.

    In this case the MoD person who has looked at it is rejecting the written documentary evidence. At the very least this could be regarded as unprofessional. It would not have been too bad if they had asked for additional specific information confirming the death was by enemy action (such as being bombed out).

    Good luck with this one Clive!
     
  14. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The MoD / Air Historical branch are presumably only mandated to view things from a service record perspective.

    However, they seem to have been stepping outside of their terms of reference if they are challenging the cause of death of someone they have stated to be a civilian at the time of death. They can't know if the certificate is 'incorrect'

    That said, I'd have hoped that CWGC might have noted the term 'Death due to war operations' and advised accordingly.
     
  15. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Dear All
    many thanks for your comments.
    I await CWGC reply and will update you accordingly.

    Just a point to note re the headstone whilst in a good condition it is in a thick wooded area and would eventually be lost from view.I will return and ensure it is still visible.
    regards
    Clive
     
  16. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Sorry I can't add a great deal; but I have found out some more about the Barrowmore Sanatorium bombing - there were 20 casualties - staff and patients. The fire brigade (I'm getting my info from a Cheshire Constabulary history which is in pamphlet form) took some time to clear the wreckage and find the bodies. That makes me lean towards the theory that he had TB and perhaps died in this raid, particularly as I can't find his name - and it is a noticeable name - on any list of civilian casualties for Chester. I don't know why the CWGC would persist in saying that his death was not due to enemy action. His parents obviously believed that or else why would they put it on his grave? I can understand his being discharged the service due to the TB, but why argue with a death certificate? I have found the CWGC most unhelpful and in fact quite snotty over this sort of thing in the past, giving out contradictory information and refusing any request to access their archives with varying excuses. I have some time coming up and will get over to the records office and see what I can dig up - if I was a surviving relative I might be quite upset by this situation.
     
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  17. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    CWGC have 14 records linked to "Barrowmore" (which is still operating so may be worth contacting to see what their records hold? Home Page
    BLUNDELL, ALBERT. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 29.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: of 29 Lily Road, Litherland, Liverpool, Lancashire. Son of Thomas and Elizabeth Blundell, of 6 Parr Street, Litherland; husband of Mary Blundell. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    BRANDON, MAY. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 33.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: Nurse. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    CUDDY, WILLIAM JOSEPH. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 26
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: of 18 Maddin Road, Lower Sydenham, Lewisham, London. Son of the late William and Elizabeth Cuddy. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    GILLEN, SHEILA. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 25.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: Nurse. Daughter of Mr. J. Gillen, of 87 Hoole Road, Hoole. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    HUGHES, ROBERT. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 20.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: Son of William and Annie E. Hughes, of 8 Sinclair Avenue, Prescot, Lancashire. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    JONES, GEORGE. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 41
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    LAWRIE, REGINALD. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 50.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT.
    Additional Information: of 89 London Road South, Poynton, Stockport. Son of William and Emma Louisa Lawrie; husband of Elsie Lawrie. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    McCARTHY, JEREMIAH. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 32.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: Son of Thomas and Hannah McCarthy, of 69 Great William O'Brien Street, Cork, Irish Republic. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    McLOUGHLIN, THOMAS FRANCIS. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 48.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: Son of the late Martin and Mary Ann McLoughlin, of Laneshaw Bridge, Colne, Lancashire; husband of Mary Anne McLoughlin, of 28 Ringstone Crescent, Nelson, Lancashire. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    McWILLIAMS, JOHN LEONARD. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 49.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: Son of the late John and Ellen McWilliams; husband of Lily McWilliams, of 16 Palm Street, Longsight, Manchester. Died at Barrowmore Hall. Great Barrow.

    PEIRSON, BENJAMIN ALFRED. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 47.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: of 27 Burdett Street, St. Michaels, Liverpool. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    PUGH, ARTHUR LESLIE VERE. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 27.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT.
    Additional Information: Son of Arthur and Edith Pugh, of The Lodge, Bridgefield, Halewood, Liverpool. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    WILLIAMS, JAMES. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 47.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT
    Additional Information: of 32 Penkford Lane, Collins Green, Warrington, Lancashire. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    WOOD, PERCY. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 60.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, RURAL DISTRICT.
    Additional Information: Husband of Esther Wood, of 30 Higher Chatham Street, Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester. Died at Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow.

    Then 2 more subsequent deaths:-
    JOHNSON, ROBERT. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 30/11/1940. Age: 31.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, COUNTY BOROUGH
    Additional Information: of Barrowmore Hall, Great Barrow. Son of Mr. and Mrs. R. Johnson. Injured 29 November 1940, at Barrowmore Hall; died at Royal Infirmary.

    MOORE, WILLIAM. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 04/12/1941. Age: 37.
    Reporting Authority: LIVERPOOL, COUNTY BOROUGH.
    Additional Information: Husband of Agnes Moore, of 2 Butleigh Road, Huyton. Injured 29 November 1940, at Barrowmore Hall, Tarvin, Cheshire; died at 2 Butleigh Road.
    So that leaves 4 unaccounted for....

    Also found some more information on t'internet....
    It served as a Colony for the treatment, training and after-care of Ex-Servicemen suffering from Tuberculosis. The Sanatorium, as it was then called, started with 70 beds. It gradually extended until by 1940 there were 165 patients. The population in the Colony or Village Settlement was by then 103. Colonists lived in cottages built on the border of the Estate. They continued to work in the rehabilitation section of the Barrowmore Industries, A Hostel for 21 unmarried men had also been built by then.

    In the early hours of the 29th November 1940, a German bomber dropped a land mine on the Estates. When it blew up 18 patients and 2 staff lost their lives. It also badly damaged the buildings and the main Sanatorium was damaged beyond repair. The then Voluntary Committee approached the Ministry of Health, "who gave every possible help aid encouragement in the building of a new Sanatorium". The first part of this was opened in 1943 with capacity to take 50 patients. In addition there were 50 Chalets for the convalescent patients.

    Chester Chronicle Saturday 5th May 1944. New Barrowmore Sanitorium - "1940s Blitz Recalled" - Chester Royal Infirmary Help Acknowledged.
    The new sanatorium at the East Lancashire Tuberculosis Colony, Barrowmore Hall, near Chester to replace the building that was destroyed by an air raid on the 29th November 1940, when 18 patients and 2 members of the staff were killed, was opened by Sir Arthur Abrahams, CBE, Vice Chairman of the Finance Committee of the Joint Red Cross and St Johns War Organisation on Wednesday. Sir William Coates, Committee Chairman thanked Chester Royal Infirmary, who took in all the wounded, treated them most carefully and well and did not accept any remuneration.
     
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  18. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Their records are held at the Chester Record Office - I don't work at the Chester campus, so it's a question of booking in and schlepping over there when I get some spare time. If 18 patients were killed and we have 16 records, then perhaps Godwin-Monck slipped through the net? Tell you what, I just read back over my posts and I mention trying to find some time three times, so I'll shut up and only post when I've actually done something!
     
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  19. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Brian: Your post #36 mentions that the casualties were "patients, staff and the fire brigade" .... why did you mention fire brigade....?
    'cos I have this chap that day:-
    DUTTON, CYRIL GEORGE. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 29/11/1940. Age: 25.
    Reporting Authority: CHESTER, COUNTY BOROUGH
    Additional Information: Fireman, A.F.S. Son of William George and Anne Dutton, of 50 St Anne Street, husband of Florence Dutton, of the same address. Died at Foregate Street.

    But Foregate Street is far from Great Barrow, so were more bombs dropped in Chester itself, or could Cyril and Godwin-Monk be the remaining two casualties of that raid?
     
  20. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Kevin, The Chester Chronicle has it that: "Just two people were killed by bombing raids in Chester during the Second World War, a fireman named Cyril Dutton and a housewife called Elizabeth Moore who was killed at home on Kitchen Street."

    And from another online history site: "1940:- Chester's first war casualty: Fireman Cyril Dutton killed by falling timbers in Foregate Street during Nov 20th air raid. Of the five civilian casualties in the city, two were firemen". I can't find the other one on the Auxiliary Fire Service website but it doesn't always have locations. They seem to be referring to just the city itself - Barrowmore is a few miles outside in the Cheshire countryside.

    Dutton seems to be quite well known in Chester and I first found mention of him from a pamphlet about the history of the Cheshire /Chester Constabulary (my uncle was a copper in Cheshire from 1930's until 1970's). The reason I mentioned him was that the account of the raid on Barrowmore Hospital mentions the devastation, roof timbers collapsed etc. - and I thought that might be a reason why they took so long to find bodies and identify them?

    Given that I've been unable to find Godwin-Monck on any list of Chester casualties - the Chronicle claims only two and other sources claim five - and the raid on 5th December itself damaged the cathedral fabric but didn't apparently cause any fatalities, my money is on him being one of the unidentified casualties from Barrowmore? Add to that the reference to the 'disease' leading to his discharge and I'm nearly there. Of course if I go and dig out the Barrowmore archives and he's not on the list, we'll have to think again?

    PS - I've altered my post 36 due to injudicious punctuation - "Fire Brigade....", should have been a new sentence rather than tacked on to, "staff and patients..."
     

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