Italian Victories In Ww2, Are There Any..

i have read accounts of the growing resilience of italian solders,in n.africa and especially mareth and after.fine soldiers,apparently.i believe gen tuker,c/o of 4th indian inf div,had some insite.i knew it was in that book.he deserves a good read.lee..

 

Peter

Thanks for that excellent piece on the Italian forces in general and the partisans in particular.

With regard to the latter, I remembered writing on the BBC site about my first meeting with these immensely brave men and I reproduce the relevant section here:

Monday 14th. May 1945
Moved off at 8 am. Stopped for night just North of Udine at small village that had been bombed by us. Partisans swarmed all over the place, one with Robin Hood beard.


The Partisans were something new in my experience. In my estimation these were genuine heroes, to have been captured by the Germans would have meant certain death for themselves and probably their families. Without exception they were all bearded and dressed in the most motley of clothing. They were armed with mainly captured German weapons and at this point in their lives they were living a dream come true. We saw one small group who had recently captured a German soldier. They were pushing him along in front of them to lord knows where. The soldier was grey in face as if he knew what fate awaited him and no one in our party made the slightest move to ask them what was going on.

 

There is a book you should read if you would like to know more about Italian Partisan activities. "Broken Column" tells the story of an Ordinary Seaman,J.F.Wilde an escaped P.O.W.,and how he commanded a Battalion of Partisans.

 

There is a book you should read if you would like to know more about Italian Partisan activities. "Broken Column" tells the story of an Ordinary Seaman,J.F.Wilde an escaped P.O.W.,and how he commanded a Battalion of Partisans.
I haven't read this book so I can't comment on what this escaped POW seaman did. However, I find it hard to believe that 'he commanded a Battalion of Partisans'.

The structure of the Partisan movement was strictly controlled. In January 1944 the Committee of National Liberation for Upper Italy (CLNAI-Commitato di Liberazione Nazionale per l'Alta Italia) was established in Milan supplemented in June '44 by the formation in Milan of the Commando Generale Corpo Volontari della Libertà (CVL), as the military side of the resistance was termed. In August the Rome government dispatched General Raffaele Cadorna to serve as military adviser to the CVL.

All the five main Italian anti-fascist parties: the Communists, Socialists, Christian-Democrats, Liberals, and Action Party, declared a political moratorium amongst themselves until the Germans and Fascists had been defeated. They formed the Committees of National Liberation (CLN), and called for vigorous guerrilla warfare, rather than mere sabotage, and for the radical reconstruction of Italy's political and economic structure. HQ CLN was presided over by the Liberal Alfredo Pizzoni and inter-party structured CLNs were set up in each Italian Region.

I cannot see how the CLN, or for that matter a regional CLN, would have sanctioned the appointment of a British seaman to lead a partisan group - although POWs were welcomed until they could be got through the border to Switzerland.

Some two hundred and fifty thousand Italians took part in the Armed Resistance. Total casualties were high, exceeding those of the Allied forces in Italy. To some 36,000 Partisans killed must be added at least 10,000 civilians killed in reprisals. A further 10,000 were killed fighting alongside Allied soldiers in the south. Another 32,000 anti-fascist Italians died fighting in foreign Resistance movements, with a similar number killed in German concentration camps. Some 8,000 Jews were deported and murdered.

Source [almost verbatim in sections]: Historical Dictionary of Fascist Italy by Philip V. Cannistraro.

Another excellent source is Mussolini's Enemies: The Italian Anti-Fascist Resistance by Charles F. Delzell (revised edition, published by Howerd Fertig, New York, 1974).

Peter

 

I've seen in a t.v. series about Italians at war (kinda like an Italian version of Band of Brothers) that some Italians who were injured from a combat patrol against the Russians tried to ask for a ride to a German truck that happens to pass-by were just shrugged of by their German allies. I know this may not be based in true events but did the Germans were kinda 'impolite' towards their Italian allies in the Eastern front or somewhere else?

Oh, and I just remembered way back then in another forum site where some people were bashing France for their cowardice, someone replied that "if France is to be laughed at, we might as well laugh at the Italians as well". I've half-read almost all infos you guys supplied me but I just want to hear your opinions, were the Italians just the same as the French?

 

I haven't read this book so I can't comment on what this escaped POW seaman did. However, I find it hard to believe that 'he commanded a Battalion of Partisans'.

The structure of the Partisan movement was strictly controlled. In January 1944 the Committee of National Liberation for Upper Italy (CLNAI-Commitato di Liberazione Nazionale per l'Alta Italia) was established in Milan supplemented in June '44 by the formation in Milan of the Commando Generale Corpo Volontari della Libertà (CVL), as the military side of the resistance was termed. In August the Rome government dispatched General Raffaele Cadorna to serve as military adviser to the CVL.

All the five main Italian anti-fascist parties: the Communists, Socialists, Christian-Democrats, Liberals, and Action Party, declared a political moratorium amongst themselves until the Germans and Fascists had been defeated. They formed the Committees of National Liberation (CLN), and called for vigorous guerrilla warfare, rather than mere sabotage, and for the radical reconstruction of Italy's political and economic structure. HQ CLN was presided over by the Liberal Alfredo Pizzoni and inter-party structured CLNs were set up in each Italian Region.

I cannot see how the CLN, or for that matter a regional CLN, would have sanctioned the appointment of a British seaman to lead a partisan group - although POWs were welcomed until they could be got through the border to Switzerland.

Some two hundred and fifty thousand Italians took part in the Armed Resistance. Total casualties were high, exceeding those of the Allied forces in Italy. To some 36,000 Partisans killed must be added at least 10,000 civilians killed in reprisals. A further 10,000 were killed fighting alongside Allied soldiers in the south. Another 32,000 anti-fascist Italians died fighting in foreign Resistance movements, with a similar number killed in German concentration camps. Some 8,000 Jews were deported and murdered.

Source [almost verbatim in sections]: Historical Dictionary of Fascist Italy by Philip V. Cannistraro.

Another excellent source is Mussolini's Enemies: The Italian Anti-Fascist Resistance by Charles F. Delzell (revised edition, published by Howerd Fertig, New York, 1974).

Peter

All Italian Partisans didn't come under CLN influence. There were many groups such as this that were independent.
In the book Wilde describes over a period of time how the group grew in size and capability.
Perhaps their version of what a Battalion consisted of was different from ours. But you should read the book first.

Brian

 

All Italian Partisans didn't come under CLN influence. There were many groups such as this that were independent.
In the book Wilde describes over a period of time how the group grew in size and capability.
Perhaps their version of what a Battalion consisted of was different from ours. But you should read the book first.

Brian
Brian

I said at the very outset that I hadn't read the book (I see it appeared in 1966) so I am in absolutely no position to comment on what Seaman James Frederick Wilde did.

Rather than bickering, if you have the book, could you give the name of the battalion he commanded and where he served?

An Italian Partisan battalion (battaglione) was a formation of between 90 and 180 men. All formations came in multiples of three, the smallest being a squad (squadra) of from 10 to 20 men. Three squadre formed a company (compagnia) and three compagnie a battaglione. Three battalions formed a brigade (brigata), and three brigades a division.

The key unit was the Brigade. There were 46 Garibaldi Brigades (Communists), these wore a red bandanna. 33 GL (Giustizia e Libertà) Brigades, these wore a blue bandanna. 12 Matteotti Brigades (socialists), red bandanna. Four Fiamme Verdi (The Green Flames, Catholic Christian Democrats) Brigades, Brigata Osoppo (which had seven operational battalions, non-communists led by the Catholic priest Father Aldo Moretti) and 15 declared Autonomous Brigades. However it should not be supposed that the independent autonomous brigades did not come under CNL control, autonomous simply meant non-party affiliation.

This is the full list of Partisan leaders Categoria:Partigiani italiani - Wikipedia on the Italian Wikipedia. The only notable foreign Partisan listed there is Rudolf Jacobs (his Partisan nom de guerre was Primo). Jacobs was a German officer, a captain in the navy, who deserted in Italy in 1943 with one of his petty officers, Johann Fritz, taking a half track loaded with petrol and arms to the partisans. Both joined the Brigata Garibaldi, commanded by Ugo Muccini, Rudolf Jacobs serving with particular distinction.

Peter

 

Peter
sorry I didn't consider I was bickering.
The book was read several years ago when my interest was caught by the fact he was a member of the Crew of H.M.Sm.Sahib,a ship that had been involved in a research project of mine. Wilde was decorated for his involvement.
When I get a chance I will look the book out and see what name was adopted by the Battalion.

Brian

 

Brian

My apologies for suggesting we were.

Found his ship:

On 16 April 1943Submarine SAHIB (Lt J H Bromage DSO, DSC) scuttled herself after being damaged by Italian corvettes GABBIANO, EUTERPE, and CLIMENE off Cape Milazzo. One rating was lost. Lt Bromage, Ty/Sub Lt N T O Berry RNR, Lt A N Brookes, Sub Lt R G Carr, Lt L E Peyton Jones DSO, DSC, Warrant Engineer D J Thomas DSC and forty one ratings were captured and made prisoners of war.

From Comando Supremo: Italy at War • View topic - Loss of steamer Scillin 14 Nov 42

Cheers

Peter

 

Brian

My apologies for suggesting we were.

Found his ship:

On 16 April 1943

From Comando Supremo: Italy at War • View topic - Loss of steamer Scillin 14 Nov 42

Cheers

Peter

No problem Peter,
the Sahib sank the Scillin before she was Named. At the time she was known as the P212. In 1998 I was over the wreck scattering the Ashes of a recently deceased survivor.
Contact and correspondence with one of the Crew was made for several years before he passed away, also with six of the 27 survivors.
In about 12hrs I will be leaving home for a Holiday but when I return I will search the book out.

Brian

 

Hi Peter,
book(s) found and the name given to the Division Wilde Commanded was the "Aliotta Division."
I find I have two copies of the book,so if you would like to read Wilde's story send a P.M. with your address so I can post one.

 

There were also the ardent Italian Fascists who fought on after the Capitulation.

Eight years ago I had a closed file opened at T.N.A. because I thought it held information needed. When It was read it I wished it had been left closed.
The File contains an account of treatment given to an R.A.F. Pilot by Italian Fascists after his re-capture.The man suffered great pain and beastiality before he was finally killed.

After reading the report I felt physically sick, and hope the perpertrators rot in Hell.

Tried emailing you but you must have changed. Can you email me on b.fentiman(AT)ntlworld.com or call me on [removed phone number] please.

My Uncle was a member of the Royal Horse and was drowned on the Scillin.

Spurius

(Edit: I've obfuscated the email and removed the phone number Spurius. It's often a bad idea to put either online. Brian should also be able to get you by PM so if details need exchanging it can be done in private - Cheers, Adam.)

 

I have a few of those Ballentine War books that came out in the 70's, one in particular called Beda Fomm, The Classic Victory by Kenneth Macksey which details the spectacular defeat of the Italian army in N. Africa at the beginning of the war. It does mention several times that although the Italian infantry man of that time was quite ready to surrender, the Italian artillery and anti tank artillery soldiers quite often fought to the death, usually with terribly antiquated and outclassed equipment.

 

I'm happy to read a good rewiew of italian at war.
sure the army don't was able and inadeguate, but there was many exemple of eroism and skill.
I remember nembo and folgore at El Alamain, MT Cervino Regiment in Russia, Arditi and X MAS in Sicily(Primosole Bridge and attac to Prins Albert during 3 commando landing).
After 8 september, durin partisan war, with german soldiers fought many italian soldiers of special corps: Arditi, X Mas and Nembo.
I think this corps were little group so was possible to provide, good guns( MAB, MG42) and good equipments(like alpine soldiers of Mt Cervino regiment in Russia that had sky, boots and adeguate winter clothes, and often make a training with German soldier.
Sure the normal regiment with "carcano 91) and artillery of 1915 and inadeguate clothes(cardboard boots and autakik wool, with only 16% of wool!!, in Russia)often were inadeguate, but there were many soldier and troops motivated.

 

My neighbour two doors down was in the Italian army in WW2 and served in Russia. He lost his fingertips to the first knuckle on both hands. He never said much about his service there other than it was very cold. Oddly enough, I've never seen him wear mittens or gloves in the winter, perhaps he finds them a bit long now. I imagine that losing the ends of his fingers may have saved his life.

 

Having read the most excellent book "Italy's year of Sorrow" I Can heartily recommend this book to anyone who has ever denigrated the Italian people for not having the same type of courage that we attribute to others -

this tells the true story of real courage in the face of the enemy who were ruthless in the execution of the orders sent down by "Smiling" Albert Kesselring and his lackeys.

I never came across any Italian Partisans when I was there as much of their main activities took place near the end of that campaign -in the freezing mountains - little food - little shelter - and little of anything ! One can only respect what they did and what they tried to do....

Cheers

 

Tried emailing you but you must have changed. Can you email me on b.fentiman(AT)ntlworld.com or call me on [removed phone number] please.

My Uncle was a member of the Royal Horse and was drowned on the Scillin.

Spurius

(Edit: I've obfuscated the email and removed the phone number Spurius. It's often a bad idea to put either online. Brian should also be able to get you by PM so if details need exchanging it can be done in private - Cheers, Adam.)

Hi Spurius,
I have sent you a P.M. with my contact details.

Brian

 

Many atrocities happen with war.
My grandparents on both sides were Italian, although living here in England from before the war.
I know they spoke of The Arandora Star - Andorra Star
Have you heard of it? I did google it to find out more.

 

Linda 1192
While we can sympathise if any of your relatives were lost with the Arandora Star - you should try to keep in mind of the conditions at that time - early 1940 - the Arandora Star was in the very centre of the retreat from both Norway and Dunkirk and saw many of her compatriots go down - Britain had thousands of Aliens - POW's - both German and Italian in various camps - as well as feeding and looking after them which was becoming difficult - it was decided that they should go to Canada - we were still under a great threat of invasion by the seemingly invincible German troops from France - but then you probably know all that already......

The Arandors Star was thought to be faster than others and therefore like the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth and thus did not require an escort -that was an error - it should always be remembered also that she was sunk by the German Gunther Prien with his famous submarine....
Cheers