Is it true that Muslims served in the Waffen SS Army

Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by madmart2908, Oct 6, 2018.

  1. madmart2908

    madmart2908 Member

    I was at a 1940's war time experience weekend which is held each year in Leeds West Yorkshire. I happened to notice that a reenactor was wearing a WORLD WAR 2 Waffen SS Nazis uniform bearing a French flag on the left arm of his uniform. On talking to the Reenactor questioning him why he was wearing a French flag on his German SS uniform ( i was taught in history lessons at school over 30 years ago that the French frought with the British and Americans against Germany !! ) i was told that the SS and Adolf Hitler actually recruited French, British, Norwegian and Danish volunteers into The ELITE SS GERMAN FOREIGN LEGION ARMY. Is it also correct that MUSLIMS also served in the SS GERMAN ARMY ? If so is there any photographic or other type of documented prove of this ?
     
  2. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

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  4. madmart2908

    madmart2908 Member

    Wow thank you alieneyes !! So it is true then that Muslims did serve in the SS german army !
    A HISTORICAL FACT THAT I WOULD HAVE NEVER KNOWN ABOUT IF IT WASNT FOR A REENACTOR AT A 1940's WAR TIME EVENT WEARING A FRENCH FLAG ON HIS SS UNIFORM !!
     
  5. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Did you ask him why he was dressed as a nazi?
     
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  6. madmart2908

    madmart2908 Member

    I'M SORRY FOR ASKING THIS NEXT QUESTION BUT WHY IS THE SS UNIFORM CONSIDERED RACIST AND IN POLITICALY INCORRECT TO BE WORN AT MOST 1940's EVENTS - I UNDERSTAND ALL ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST AND THE TERRIBLE WAR CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE NAZIS GERMAN PARTY AGAINST THE JEWS BUT WASNT THE SS ORGINALLY STARTED AS A ELITE FIGHTING UNIT ABIT LIKE THE BRITISH SAS AND COMMANDO'S AND WHY IS THE BLACK GERMAN UNIFORM FROWN UPON SO MUCH ? WASN'T THIS UNIFORM WORN BY GERMAN PANZER TANK CREWS AND THE GERMAN LUFTWAFFE AIR FORCE AND OTHER FIGHTING UNITS WHO WERE PART OF THE SS ? If this uniform is considered so offensive then to be politicaly correct would it be not also be offensive to dress as a american cowboy or a roundhead or as a american civil war confederate soldier or as a christian crusader during some type of historical rememberance event incase it offended now aday relations who ever was persecuted back ?
     
  7. madmart2908

    madmart2908 Member

    yes CL1 he said that the SS was a Elite fighting force abit like the british SAS and COMMANDO'S ? erm yeah ?? --- thus my other question about the SS UNIFORM BEING CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE ? YES I UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST OF THE JEWS AND THE WAR CRIMES ETC
     
  8. madmart2908

    madmart2908 Member

    yes CL1 he said that the SS was a Elite fighting force abit like the british SAS and COMMANDO'S ? erm yeah ?? --- thus my other question about the SS UNIFORM BEING CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE ? YES I UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST OF THE JEWS AND THE WAR CRIMES ETC and that he was trying to educate people about the terrible acts of war and that NOT ALL SS Soliders followed the nazis party politics ??
     
  9. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    ummmmmm
    I think you need to read a bit more about the SS and this person suggesting he was educating people about the terrible acts of war does not require a SS uniform to do it

    I think you will find they were well trained

    Members of the Waffen-SS were involved in numerous atrocities.[11] At the post-war Nuremberg trials, the Waffen-SS was judged to be a criminal organisation due to its connection to the Nazi Party and direct involvement in numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity.
    Waffen-SS - Wikipedia
     
  10. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Well there you stumble into the mire of Nazism and its close entwinement with the SS, because without the former there would have been no latter. Things not to like about the SS are a very long and varied record of atrocities against both civilians and POWs, running from isolated incidents that can be replicated in other wars and conflicts, to the destruction of entire villages and small towns, and their unfortunate residents, that are rather less common. The way the SS tried to structure itself on the racial purity lines espoused by the Nazi doctrine. The way the SS recruited from all conquered nations and in the post-war has been held up by some as leading an anti-communist crusade. The way it participated in the extermination of millions of people who were deemed by the Nazi state as non-human. The way there has been a very long and concerted effort to portray the whole SS as some form of fighting elite, though really there were out of 38 Divs perhaps 7-8 that were decent on the battlefield. And the notion that because they were SS they were somehow superior because...? Well, they had the same basic training, same weapons as the rest of the German armed forces, so quite why them wearing a pair of SS runes made them superior beings would seem to play neatly in the Nazi racial purity argument. Personally, I can live without them.

    Gary
     
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  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    They weren't 'elite'...in fact on many occasions they showed themselves to be pretty incompetent when compared with well-trained Wehrmacht units...and they were a bunch of murdering thugs right from the beginning. That they managed to attract the thugs and bullies from countries that had been conquered or that had an axe to grind with the Allies should come as no surprise.

    A spot of reading first might not be a bad idea.

    The Battle and Massacre of Wormhout - 28th May 1940
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Slightly off the way of this thread but you say "I was taught at school that the French fought with the British and Americans against Germany". Largely true but to improve your history the French also fought against the British and Americans. For starters look at the French fighting the British and Americans during Operation Torch in North Africa, the French fighting the British in Syria and the collusion of the French with Japan in French Indo-China prior and during the Japanese invasion of Malaya.

    Tim
     
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  14. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    The last bit you added would if I were a historian of intellect receive a reply of substance, but im not,
    So if you cant see why wearing nazi uniform ss or otherwise in the 21st century is not acceptable I feel you are taking the rise and/or trying to stir up an issue that isnt there.
     
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I firmly disagree that wearing Nazi uniforms is always not acceptable.
    There's a variety of solid reasons for them in re-enacting. Context is all, & I've been informed & even entertained by people doing such at many points in the past. This isn't Germany, where it's illegal & I'm irritated by the current somewhat prurient white-washing of them from events etc. sometimes apparently triggered by a single complainant.

    But that tortuous discussion is for the main thread:
    SS reenactment

    This thread isn't really about re-enactment, is it?
    Tread carefully, chaps.
    I say again:


    [​IMG]
     
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  16. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  17. Dave55

    Dave55 Very Senior Member Patron

    Mers-el-Kebir too. Sad but 100 percent justified action by Somerville.
     
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  18. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I would endorse Clive's comment on self study of the SS from good quality sources.It would be helpful to look at the SS structure and see how it dovetailed into the overall system of Third Reich concentration camp and security system.party machine,SS economics and as what was regarded by some as an elite fighting force.There are abundant publications giving an insight to the birth of the NASAP and its criminal elements.

    The first point is to emphaise that the NSDAP, (the Nazi Party),the SS and the Waffen SS were declared to be criminal organisations at Nuremberg. The Third Reich was deemed to be a totalitarian state whose principles were based on waging war, racial ideology and genocide.Such principles could not be applied to British special forces whose allegiance and loyalty is to crown and country and not as the NAZI Party,SS and Waffen SS was to the main principal of the Third Reich,Adolf Hitler.

    As regards the wearing of the criminal organisation uniforms of the Third Reich.In countries such as France it is forbidden to wear such uniforms even at reenactment events.Germany has the same restrictions.

    Ultimately there were two SS elements within the NSDAP,the General SS and its sub structure which carried out unarmed duties as distinct from the Waffen SS which grew from 7000 in 1938 to approximately 900000 by the end of the war.The background to the Waffen SS was that prewar the Waffen SS was not exempt from Hitler's conscription resulting in the SS leadership such as Eicke forming their own waffen force.Otherwise they thought that they would lose good men to the Wehrmacht. SS Divisions fought under the overall command of the Heer and were not independent where they were at times praised for their bravery and equally criticised for the wanton loss of their lives. Certain Heer leadership have been recorded as not been complimentary to their present in their command, whereas others voicing equal criticism possessed covert admiration of their battlefield achievements. However they reported to Himmler and were a law to themselves and had in place their own special disciplinary code.(Special SS and Police Courts)

    The command link with the Waffen SS within the Heer battlefield operational command often raised problems for Heer battlefield commanders when Waffen SS commanders decided to ignore the Heer command.Further,disquiet was raised by Heer commanders when the SS carried out atrocities while within the command structure of the Heer.....these objections usually came to nought.

    The SS,the Schutz Staffel had their origin from the German Imperial Army stormtroopers during the Great War.As Hitler's political career within the NSDAP rose when he was released from prison on account of the failed 1923 coup,they became the Strosstrupp Hitler which was formed to provide personal security and protection for Hitler,the NSDAP and their meetings..On the foundation of the Third Reich,the SS became the guardian of National Socialist Germany,its Praetorian Guard and became a state within a state.It neutralised the SA political standing within the NSDAP in so far as the SA were relegated to a minor non military role after the Night of the Long Knives in June 1934 when the SA leader Rohm,a political friend of Hitler, was murdered after being accused of planning a coup against Hitler. Rohm's vision was to carry socialism further which was contrary to Hitler's policy when he assumed the role of Chancellor.

    Many SS members were previously members of the SA and as many, recruits to the SS were attracted and enthralled by the black uniform and brown shirts.Himmler wrote in 1936 in a brochure entitled Die Schutzstaffeeln "I know that there are millions in Germany who are sicken at the sight of the black uniforms of our SS.We understand that well,and we do not expect to be too loved by many".It was those who saw their future in this instrument of terror who readily volunteered to be part of a state within a state.

    Through the formation of the Totenkopfverbande,the SS provided the management and guards for the new concentration camp structures. Eicke,the first Dachau concentration camp commandant was the vanguard of the formation of the Waffen SS,the political army,when as inspector of concentration camps,he formed the Waffen SS Totenkopt Division in 1939.Other divisions were formed with the peak in 1945 when 15 were established,proved to be short lived but making a total of 38 Divisions.This, from the four Waffen SS Divisions, No 2 SS Panzer Division Das Reich ,No 3 SS Panzer Division Totenkopf, No 4 SS Panzergrenadier Division Polizei and No 5 Panzer Division Wiking which Germany went to war with in 1939.

    In 1940 two more SS Divisions were formed followed by two more in 1942.

    The qualifications for entry to the SS,described as a SIPPE,ie,tribe or clan were demanding based on physical characteristics,outstanding general health with added requirement for the utmost condition of dental health. Overwhelming was the requirement that entrants had to present evidence of racial purity...the doctrine of Race and Blood.....evidence of Aryan blood back to 1750 for officers and back to 1800 for ORs and this applied to their wives....permission was hence required for a SS man to marry....now go and breed and create larger families,failure to do so would restrict an SS man's promotion.... a wife under 40 years of age was expected to be pregnant every two years.

    The watershed for the Waffen SS came in 1943 when Germany entered a phase of manpower deficiency both in the means of the war economy sufficient to support war and battlefield manpower.The result was that Himmler dropped his demanding standards for SS entry and widespread recruitment commenced from Germany itself and those of NAZI ideology in occupied countries, generating a further nine Divisions.Among this group was No 13 Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS Handschar (Croatian No 1) comprised of Moslems who with No 23 Waffen Gebirgs Division der Kama (Croatian No 2) raised in 1944 in order to pacify Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia.

    1943 saw the establishing and emergence in 1944 of No 12 SS Panzer Division Hitler Jugend in the Normandy campaign and the associated atrocities against POWs.

    I would add that the French at war with the British and the US were the forces of Vichy France,Petain led,it saw its proper place in Europe as a satellite defeated country of the Germany.
     
  19. TriciaF

    TriciaF Junior Member

    Excellent resumee , Harry Ree. I wish I had so much history at my fingertips.
    The point about so-called racial purity required in the early days of the SS - this could have been part of the reason for the dislike of the Jewish race, who mostly intermarried.
    And I believe there was a world wide wave of nationalism both before and after WW1. Germany, as a young country, wanted to prove it's racial purity too. as in Nazi ideology.
    The Moslems hadn't yet got to that stage apparently.
     
  20. steelers708

    steelers708 Junior Member

    I would like to correct a few errors that Harry made above aswel as add a few points of my own.

    It would have been nice to see some examples of Waffen SS commanders ignoring Heer commands rather than a blanket statement that they did it, it makes it sound like they were the only ones to ever ignore orders which is plainly not true, Heer commander also ignored orders.

    Also, whilst it is true that on occasions Heer commanders did protest about Waffen SS atrocities it should not be forgotten that the Heer themselves also carried out atrocities which were never punished either and were just as culpable as the Waffen SS, unfortunately post war many of the Heer and Luftwaffe massacres go untalked about and are forgotten or ignored. It is also true that many Heer commanders were strict adherents to many of Hitlers orders regading atoricites e.g. the Kommissarbefehl and the Kommandobefehl.

    In 1939 there were only 3 Waffen SS units, namely the, Infanterie-Regiment Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler(mot.), SS-Verfügungs-Division and the Totenkopf division. The Leibstandarte would not become a division until the invasion of Russia and the SS-Verfügungs would(minus SS Regt Germania) eventually become the Das Reich. The 'Wiking' division was not formed until December 1940, initially as SS Division 'Germania' before being renamed 'Wiking' in January 1941. The 'Polizei' division was a Heer division when formed and would remain so until February 1943 when it was transferred to the Waffen SS.

    It should be pointed out that the French and Belgian units had originally been raised, and fought, as Heer units, the Légion des Volontaires Français contre le Bolchévisme and Légion Wallonie respectively before being transferred to the Waffen SS like the Polizei division.

    8 divisions were created in 1945, but like quite a few of those formed in 1944, they were expanded from already existing units, mainly of brigade size, and never reached the manpower levels of a division e.g Langemarck and Nederland.

    The onset of manpower shortages for the Waffen SS was the same as for the Heer, but the problem was that whilst the Waffen SS could accept volunteers from within Greater Germany it was only permitted 2% of each years annual draft class, at the same time the number of western European volunteers i.e. French, Dutch, Danish, Belgian etc began to decline therefore the Waffen SS was allowed to draft Volksdeutsche from occupied territories and friendly countries e.g. Hungary and Romania, examples of this are the 23rd 'Kama', 13th 'Handschar' and the 7th 'Prinz Eugen'.

    It should also be pointed out that from mid-1944 large numbers of excess Luftwaffe ground crews and defunct ships crews etc from the Kriegsmarine were also forcibly transferred to the Waffen SS with very little training in ground combat operations, many of these went to the 'top' division for example the Leibstandarte, Das Reich, HitlerJugend etc which accounts for their poor performance late in the war compared to the early and mid war years.

    Finally it should be pointed out that large numbers of foreigners served the Germans in other capacities e.g. the NSKK and rear area security units like the French Milice.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
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