Is it just me ?

"..and don't assume just because he was in the SS he committed any 'crimes' as you put it. You have to apply the law(s) applicable at that time in the places that he served. He may have done things which we today would not approve of, but then most soldiers committed acts which today in peacetime would not be tolerated. That is the nature of war and politics. It still happens in conflict zones around the world now."

That is just wrong and is very disrespectful to serving soldiers. British forces at least are held accountable for there actions don't think for one monument that a few high-profile incidents is the norm.
Just being in the SS (waffen SS maybe a bit of leeway) might not have been a crime the in Germany but was is it not a crime ageist Humanity. He may not have been judge at the time but I think history has judge all (99%) of The SS.

 

Ron, Only just came across this thread now and I applaud your actions in making a worthwhile point whilst not taking the other thread off direction, even though your point is valid.
As regards whether the individual was guilty of war crimes or not, I should remind you that Kate, in a post on the original thread, wondered why his rank was so low given that he joined the SS early. If someone joined the SS in 1944-45 you might make the point that he was conscripted into the SS and therefore did not agree with its ideology or its methods. However given that his membership goes back to pre-war then you can be sure that he believed in their aims and objectives. He would have received indoctrination and training. Whilst I am not accusing him of being a war criminal, I am fairly sure that we would not see eye to eye on a number of issues. He was a member of a criminal organisation and an early one at that. I would contend that Ron makes a valid point.

We are a history forum, we study all aspects of the war, not just the bits that are acceptable. But we should do so in a detached and respectful manner. Discussion of the SS does not make us all supporters of their ways, but we should be mindful of how we approach things.

 

Photo #1, do not think he is German SS

Photo#2..definately not SS, typical Werhmacht uniform.
#3 note sure, but riding breeches would normally indicate an officer (if German) but with a rifle & a side cap...doesn't make sense. it may well be Ukranian SS or the like.


Regards

Simon

As far as I can make out the soldiers in the first two photographs were not SS.
Both wearing Wehrmacht uniforms.

The last photo I am not able to identify the uniform.

Regards
Tom

 

As far as I can make out the soldiers in the first two photographs were not SS.
Both wearing Wehrmacht uniforms.

The last photo I am not able to identify the uniform.

Regards
Tom

That's what i wanted to say....
I "hoped" them to be SS .

 

I "hoped" them to be SS .

...ah, advocating the theory of the "clean Wehrmacht"?

Oh the irony...

 

Not my wish.
I was just afraid we arrive to that conclusion.
I have not an once of admiration,devotion,call it like you want, for the Heer,and needless to say,for the SS.These guys have done some things in my vicinity that make me want them to burn in hell for eternity.

 

"needless to say" is "no need to say" in my mind...Sorry if i was wrong..

 

Ron and others,

My initial reponse to seeing the other thread was a sense of personal voyeurism. Whilst the documents posted would probably have historic importance, I think as they stand they require a much greater degree of contextual analysis before any specific comment made about them would have any validity. Clearly the gentlemen whose forefather is described has embarked on an investigation of his family's background and it is hoped that he is able to work through the details to his own personal satisfaction. I wish him well but suspect the "answers" that the research will throw up will not be very edifying, but that is something that is clearly most important for him and his family to assess.

I think the element of this story that needs to be highlighted is the "ordinariness" of this man. With the connivance of mainstream politicians and army leadership, a criminal gangster group took over power in Germany in January 1933, soon to carry out massive levels of extra judicial murders, aggressive wars of expansion leading to the deaths of millions, and the planning and active participation in genocide. Tens of millions of people supported this government and many millions took active part in carrying out its wishes. Many Germans disagreed and according to the "law of the land" at the time died for their active resistance. Not something to be forgotten by future generations.

Richard

 

(Extract from 591-research last post)

And laws change as do societies' attitudes to those laws.

It is a trite example, i admit, and is for illustration purposes only:

It was once quite legal to trade in and purchase heroin at a drugstore, in a drug den, where ever you liked in the UK. This in modern times is a class A drug and illegal. Back in the day, society was accepting of its wide social use.

On the flip side, It was for many years a crime to be a practising homosexual, punishable by a prison sentence with hard labour. Now in the UK that is all changed and it is no longer considered a criminal act, and generally speaking, much regret is expressed in society about how those convicted were treated.

Slavery in the UK and its dominions was also a legal, which applying modern laws and sensibilities is considered a heinous barbaric industry. Go back 250 years and most of society viewed it very differently.

Murder has never been acceptable or legal.

Pete

 

British forces at least are held accountable for there actions don't think for one monument that a few high-profile incidents is the norm.


Speaking from experience or what you have read in the papers?

Just checking

 

Photo #1, do not think he is German SS

Photo#2..definately not SS, typical Werhmacht uniform.
#3 note sure, but riding breeches would normally indicate an officer (if German) but with a rifle & a side cap...doesn't make sense. it may well be Ukranian SS or the like.


Regards

Simon

The first two photos are German army uniforms, the last one is Japanese.

 

My father was mobilised in 1939, and was a POW from Aug 44 til liberation

He had no malice or hatred for the german soldier as he saw that they were just the same as he, a soldier doing their duty.

He did have a hatred for SS/Nazis - who were an entirely different breed of ruthless bas****s in his words. How could a citizen join such an organisation, knowing well what its main intentions were, and be 'blameless'? The Waffen SS were fanatics, and a very vicious enemy to encounter but they should not be mixed up with the Camp Guard SS variety who in his opinion were simply the 'scum of the earth' whos idiology was that half of the human race were in fact classed as 'sub human' and that this allowed to mistreat them in anyway they thought was appropriate

this is why we maintain museums, and former KZ sites, in order to remind the younger generations as they come along of how the world must stop the rise of fascism always and never allow it to be glorified in any way shape or form

 

Is that right, Lee?
If so that's sort of fascinating, as I'd always assumed some sort of Wehrmacht Police-ey uniform. The Woman's looks puzzled me a little but I'd assumed Eastern front somewhere.
Japanese does fit when I look again. Somewhere in China maybe? -
Do you know any more about the shot's circumstance.

So it may well be true about ass & assuming...


That is amazing. I've seen that horrific picture around for years and had also aa-u-me-d it was on the Eastern Front ( the Russian German Eastern Front).

Hope that p**** is enjoying his stay in Hell.

Dave

 

[...]the last one is Japanese.

Lee, you sure about that?

I know the photograph was included in the first Wehrmachtsausstellung and they had to take it out because it's a part of this photograph:


The reason they had to remove it is that the situation - i.e. the soldier shooting a woman and child - isn't all that clear given the rest of the image.

I linked Za with the picture earlier today as he brought it up, but hesitated to post in this thread because I'm perfectly aware of the criminal nature of the so-called 'war of annihilation' and certainly not one of those who so fervently hate on the above mentioned exhibition.
Even though I know that murders like those shown in the photographs were common on the Eastern front I disagree with Za's implication that every German soldier was involved in crimes and/or a Nazi - and as was pointed out above, the soldiers in the first two pictures are Heer, not SS (eagle on chest, Wehrmacht cap).

@ Captain Bill:
- Don't forget that from 1943 the SS also took in "forced volunteers", as Himmler called them.
- There actually was personnel exchange between camp guards and Waffen-SS. And wounded soldiers (Wehrmacht, too) unfit for combat had to "work" as KZ personnel.

 

My mistake the last isn't Japanese but seem to remember seeing an almost identical photo with a Japanese soldier aiming at a women and child.

 

Ron, I stand in your corner.

I too was concerned by the post you quoted -
which seemed to demean the crimes committed,
overall, by the SS

You have opened a very fascinating debate.
It's a shame that it only illustrates how swiftly
history can change when there's 'no-one who
was actually there' to question it.

The SA were bastards. Let none forget it.
The SS were worse. Let none forget it.

 

591 Research says:
<< "Time has moved on, and there is far less of a stigma attached to which side some one was attached to in WW2."

>> nope, I'd still be ashamed if my grandfather turned out to be in the SS.
I might understand his joining etc, but I'd still be ashamed. Very ashamed.
Time doesn't "move on" when it comes to genocide (unless you're in the US
and handing out visa's and green cards in the 1950's...).


<< There are plenty of lessons to be learned from individual cases on all sides
>> There are twice as many lessons learned from the overall statistics too


<< and I think it is a wonderful thing that your grandfather's family held on to all these papers all this time. They must have loved and missed him a great deal, and been proud of him too.

>> Personally, I find it odd that only the SS/SA/NSDAP membership cards
survived, in mint condition, rather than the birthday cards, but hey, that's
families for you...


<< ..and don't assume just because he was in the SS he committed any 'crimes' as you put it. You have to apply the law(s) applicable at that time in the places that he served. He may have done things which we today would not approve of, but then most soldiers committed acts which today in peacetime would not be tolerated.

>> That almost fails to comprehend exactly what the SS stood for..


<< That is the nature of war and politics. It still happens in conflict zones around the world now.

>> Being a member of the SS is not really the same as a couple of USMarines pissing on a dead Talib....

 

591 Research says:
<< "Time has moved on, and there is far less of a stigma attached to which side some one was attached to in WW2."

>> nope, I'd still be ashamed if my grandfather turned out to be in the SS.
I might understand his joining etc, but I'd still be ashamed. Very ashamed.
Time doesn't "move on" when it comes to genocide (unless you're in the US
and handing out visa's and green cards in the 1950's...).



591 research should really choose his words much more carefully (and take off his rose tinted glasses) and Pollux5 can surely speak for himself, but...
You're not holding Pollux5 responsible for his grandfather, are you?!
What has he to do with the fact his grandfather joined NS organisations (at a frighteningly early moment, too)? It's defo not okay to suggest he should feel ashamed about it.
Of course time moves on - half Europe would still be butchering each other if it wasn't. History mustn't be forgotten, but passing on guilt to future generations is a very stupid thing to do.

<< That is the nature of war and politics. It still happens in conflict zones around the world now.

>> Being a member of the SS is not really the same as a couple of USMarines pissing on a dead Talib....
That war of annihilation can't really be compared to any "conflict zone around the world".
But I don't see what purpose your comparison of SS and marines "pissing on a dead Talib" serves? Is it to illustrate that joining the SS (forced or not, reason and date being of no importance) made one a criminal no matter what whereas urinating on dead enemies is fine - as long you're the one fighting for "a just cause" and your enemy happens to be a Taliban?

 

Pollux5 has discovered a family member with a history in the SS.

Let Pollux5 investigate, piece the details together and further understand the history of the family member.Pollux5 will draw his/her conclusions/thoughts once the detail is finalised.

We all know and understand that certain entities committed untold horrors.
What was inhuman then still stands today and the future.
Pollux5 will be aware of this too.