Is it just me ?

On another thread, Pollux5 has posted pictures of his late grandfather and tells us of his intention to write a book that will include some of the data he has just posted.

Nothing new there, it is not the first time we have read this on the forum.

The only thing different this time, is that the young man’s grandfather was a fairly active member of the SS and we are told that amongst his various duties was a spell at a one of the concentration camps:

Pollux5 makes no attempt to glorify his grandfather’s role as an SS member and I have no wish to rain on his parade, hence my starting a fresh thread here. I also admit that it was not my original intention to make any comment at all on this thread but I have just read a comment by another of our members which I feel does requires some response from me..

591 Research says:

What a treasure to inherit. I think you hit the jackpot receiving those in to your custodianship to keep for future generations. Thank you for sharing them with us too.

Time has moved on, and there is far less of a stigma attached to which side some one was attached to in WW2. There are plenty of lessons to be learned from individual cases on all sides, and I think it is a wonderful thing that your grandfather's family held on to all these papers all this time. They must have loved and missed him a great deal, and been proud of him too. I hope someone can volunteer to translate the letter for you.

..and don't assume just because he was in the SS he committed any 'crimes' as you put it. You have to apply the law(s) applicable at that time in the places that he served. He may have done things which we today would not approve of, but then most soldiers committed acts which today in peacetime would not be tolerated. That is the nature of war and politics. It still happens in conflict zones around the world now.
It is the last paragraph to which I draw your attention and I ask a fairly simple question.

Is this how future generations are being asked to consider the criminally heinous, disgusting and mind-numbing atrocities committed by the members of the SS under the benign auspices of the Third Reich and am I the only one to find this disturbing ?

Ron

 

Hi Ron,
As one of the younger members on the forum please allow to me say that in no way do I or my peers who are aware of WWII, sweep over the fact that some horrendous and horrifc crimes were committed in the name of the Third Reich.
However, what I think 591 research is trying to say is that Pollux's Grandfather, despite being the member of an SS unit, may not have committed any crimes and it is necessary when researching something of this magnitude to enter with an open mind, not pre-judging what we think we may find as it may end up that we only look for what we are 'looking for'. But we also need to be aware that it is a possibility that he did.

Kind regards.

 

IMHO, I think that's a little harsh Ron.

We know full well of the atrocities committed but there is no indication that this individual had any part of them and that's why the original poster is being told not to assume anything.

I wasn't there and cannot even begin to understand how you and our other honourable veterans may feel about these subjects and the indiviual people involved but we must have both sides and both perspectives for at least two reasons:

1. So we can understand the trauma, pressure and consequences of the war years.
2. So we can try to ensure that a third world war doesn't happen.

There are many other reasons why but for me, these are the top two.

By all means, we should pursue the criminals... but we should not condemn anyone without proof. The point above about soldiers doing things in war that wouldn't be acceptable in peacetime is true in certain aspects. In war, soliders kill each other. In peacetime, that would be illegal and unacceptable.

Just my opinion, and absolutely no offence is meant to any party.

Regards,
Sean

 

In his book Just and Unjust Wars, the philosopher Michael Walzer delivers an effective riposte to the Realist position on war and morality - the idea that 'it is the nature of war' to be horrific, and so it's acceptable to respond to that horror with a resigned shrug. Inter arma silent leges.

But war is not an earthquake; it is not a tsunami; it is not a volcano erupting. War is not 'naturally' anything. It has no 'essential' qualities. It is a human activity, and so it involves decision-making and choices. Those choices can, and should, be judged.

Best, Alan

 

Ron, Ron, Ron, we must move with the times. German soldiers were just like everybody else, they just liked a bit of fun once in a while. What can be wrong with it after all?



You know, things that ALL soldiers do.



What? They don't?

 

RON
Couldn't agree more - however we are in great danger of being called racist -but then we have both been called worse in our day.....so what else is new - doesn't matter if the people in charge have legislated for all the things we served as patriots - fought and shed our youth ,and our blood against...times change we have to move on they say....I only ask if things are really better as I fear for my Grandchildren......better quit before I am banned
Cheers

 

Personally, I commend Pollux5 for his (or her?) post: an alternative approach may have been to shy away/keep it quiet. Obviously, Pollux5 should shoulder no blame for whatever his/her grandfather did during the war and investigating the past may bring up some nasty information - however, it is history.

However, I do agree that 591 Research appears to be saying 'if he was involved in anything nefarious, he was only obeying the law (orders?)'; that has previously been shown to be no excuse. I do hope that is not what he/she meant.

Roxy

 

I'd like to just thank the forum member for my negative rep and their obvious inability to see that it's possible that not every German soldier was a war criminal.

I gave my honest opinion in as eloquent a way as I could. I won't bother again.

As an ex-soldier, I've seen my share... I wonder if the forum member in question has? That's me done.

Regards,
Sean

 

Is this how future generations are being asked to consider the criminally heinous, disgusting and mind-numbing atrocities committed by the members of the SS under the benign auspices of the Third Reich and am I the only one to find this disturbing ?

Ron

Personally, Ron, on the whole I would consider the SS were rather different to the 'ordinary German soldier'. Many atrocities were carried out in the name of the Third Reich. They did not just happen by themselves.

 

Hi Ron,

I saw this post when it was entered and wondered how it was going to make vets feel as I know how my dad would have reacted.
Reality is that vets have a lot of deep open wounds that probably will never heal. Maybe we are expecting too much of them to swallow references to the SS.

It depends on what the guiding principals of the forum are I suppose and if they have changed from the start.

Are we distinguishing between one fondly remembered ex SS grandpa and the SS in it's entirety?

peaceful
Chrissie

 

To paraphrase an old adage, "The devil is in the detail"

When I kicked off this thread, I see that I drew your attention to the last para of comment that 591 Research had made.

I now see that I should have rightly asked you to consider the last few lines, namely:
He may have done things which we today would not approve of, but then most soldiers committed acts which today in peacetime would not be tolerated.
The implication clearly stated here is that even if he was known to have committed offences it is now considered OK because, don't you know, all soldiers are like that.

Looking back at the comments so far I think that Miguel (Za Rodinu) has probably, in his own particular caustic manner, hit the nail well and truly on the head.

If what has been said on the original thread typifies what some folk regard as being even akin to the truth G-d help us all

and a very good night to you all

Ron

 

Za

Those photos are horrible and the people in them should be prosecuted, but are any wearing SS uniforms?

regards

Robert

 

Ron, Ron, Ron, we must move with the times. German soldiers were just like everybody else, they just liked a bit of fun once in a while. What can be wrong with it after all?



You know, things that ALL soldiers do.



What? They don't?


Za,that's what i call a reply!
Ron,we will always need your experience,Vets like your are sort of lighthouse for the young generations.
While reading the comment saying"time has passed,who are we to judge",i feel like on the french historical forums:"SS were guys like the average Allied soldier,just doing their job"
I simply reply. NO !!!!!!!
To be a SS was a vocation,to fight them was a duty,imo.
And i have to add,since i live in France,i have a slight idea of what a SS was...

 

Za

Those photos are horrible and the people in them should be prosecuted, but are any wearing SS uniforms?

regards

Robert

Dear Robert,
I personaly and sincerely do hope they ARE wearing SS uniforms....
Otherwise,the debate is just beginning,héhéhé....

 

Dear Robert,
I personaly and sincerely do hope they ARE wearing SS uniforms....
Otherwise,the debate is just beginning,héhéhé....

Photo #1, do not think he is German SS

Photo#2..definately not SS, typical Werhmacht uniform.
#3 note sure, but riding breeches would normally indicate an officer (if German) but with a rifle & a side cap...doesn't make sense. it may well be Ukranian SS or the like.


Regards

Simon

 

'Obeying orders!' It was known to me. 'The use of obeying orders as a defence cannot be offered if in carrying out said order it is reasonable to expect that you knew it to be an illegal order'. The individual responsibility of those serving in the SS and other units must be viewed with the doctrine of these units taken into consideration, a perverse doctrine. Of course illegal acts may have occurred in allied units - not as doctrine!

 

Many atrocities were carried out in the name of the Third Reich. They did not just happen by themselves.[/QUOTE]

Well said. This should never be forgotten. [or perhaps I should be brave enough to say never forgiven.] ??

I expect that statement will upset a few people.!!

Regards, Keith.

 

Hi Ron,
As one of the younger members on the forum please allow to me say that in no way do I or my peers who are aware of WWII, sweep over the fact that some horrendous and horrifc crimes were committed in the name of the Third Reich.
However, what I think 591 research is trying to say is that Pollux's Grandfather, despite being the member of an SS unit, may not have committed any crimes and it is necessary when researching something of this magnitude to enter with an open mind, not pre-judging what we think we may find as it may end up that we only look for what we are 'looking for'. But we also need to be aware that it is a possibility that he did.

Kind regards.


That is in part what I meant by my post, and in reference to the legal aspect, one cannot ignore what was then allowed by law or not allowed, at that time in the Axis controlled countries.

And laws change as do societies' attitudes to those laws.

It is a trite example, i admit, and is for illustration purposes only:

It was once quite legal to trade in and purchase heroin at a drugstore, in a drug den, where ever you liked in the UK. This in modern times is a class A drug and illegal. Back in the day, society was accepting of its wide social use.

On the flip side, It was for many years a crime to be a practising homosexual, punishable by a prison sentence with hard labour. Now in the UK that is all changed and it is no longer considered a criminal act, and generally speaking, much regret is expressed in society about how those convicted were treated.

Slavery in the UK and its dominions was also a legal, which applying modern laws and sensibilities is considered a heinous barbaric industry. Go back 250 years and most of society viewed it very differently.

It is therefore essential as part of research, to view life, work, and social responsibilities in the 1930's and early 1940's in Germany bearing in mind the laws applicable at that time in the country. They are part of the story. What was legitimate then and there, may not have been so in other countries. Yet Pollox5's grandfather was living in Germany at that time and as a citizen was subject to those laws and directives issued by High Command.

The Geneva Convention had been around for some 70-80 years by then, and applied to the welfare of military personnel, it was after WW2 it was amended to include provision and protection for civilian personnel. Thus at the time of WW2 civillians were not afforded the same human rights as military personnel. Again something we must bear in mind.

As previously classified information and eye witness acounts are release for public scrutiny, inevitably we can all re-assess events in light of the new evidence. It may be that our opinions are strengthened by the new evidence, or perhaps we re-evaluate and alter our opinions.

In history books where once a whole unit, or regiment or even army was collectively blamed for an incident, in time with new evidence, it may become possible to apportion blame directly where it is due.

An example of that is in the reporting of the shooting of Allied POWs on 6th June 1944 in Normandy. I have read history books during my research, where the German Unit is blamed for this incident.

I have now seen the original documents and interviews with material witnesses, and in light of that evidence, there is only one man responsible for the war crime. Most if not all the other men in his unit took no part whatsoever in the incident, and perhaps the only aspect that they are guilty of is not making a witness statement to the Court of Inquiry if they even knew than one was taking place, or had taken place which is doubtful given that the records were sealed for over 60years.

There are scores of pages in the Inquiry and yet one small comment made by one witness, changed my view on what happened, and it could easily be overlooked.
That comment was to say that the Man who carried out the shooting (and was in charge of the close non-combat unit whose main job was the care of the regiments horses) had just been informed of the killing of three of his men. Whether these 3 were killed by the POWs before capture or killed by other allied troops in the area at the time, doesn't matter, the fact is three of his collegues were now dead.
So, far from being the cold blooded murder of the POWs, that I and many other had assumed, it is now much more likely that this was a reactionary revenge killing. Human nature and loyalty being what it is.

We still read of such reports in todays conflict zones. Where coalition forces take revenge retribution on civilians and suspects for the deaths or injuries of their comrades without referring the matter to any court of enquiry.
In the heat of intense anger and emotion, and armed with a weapon, researchers can apply some understanding to the probable mindset of the person(s) who commits such acts. It is the same principal which governs the behaviour of street gangs. The need to exact revenge punishment without recourse to the law first. It is still a crime, but there are extenuating circumstances which cannot be ignored by the researcher.

Not all street gang members will do this, but precious few would spill the beans on what they have witnessed.
Not all soldiers will do this, but precious few would admit to such revenge attacks or to knowing their colleagues had undertaken such attacks.

One has to accept that loyalty to one's family, military unit, political party , street gang what ever it might be, is often a very stong emotional bond. That bond can override commonsense decisions, override the law, and override responsibility to others and override societies expectations.

So my advice to Pollox5 was not to immediately jump to horrifying conclusions. It is all to easy to do that and every soldier is an individual and each of them must be afforded the recognition of having their own story, as well as being part of a unit, part of a regiment, part of a division , part of an army.

I don't blame every member of the Royal Navy for the torpedo attack on the SS Scillin known to be carrying hundreds of commonwealth POWs across the Med, even though they murdered my relative in that attack.
That would be unfair and unjust.

I will not blame every member of the SS for all the crimes of the SS either for the same reason. It would not be fair or just to do so.

Hitler and his gang sterotyped large groups of people, I try not to. Every individual has their own story and I do try and remember that every person plays they own unique part in history. Whether good or bad.