Irishmen In Ww2

Discussion in 'General' started by pol o frithil, Dec 8, 2004.

  1. pol o frithil

    pol o frithil Junior Member

    to all members,
    i am trying to find out how many irishmen fought in world war 2 . i know that they fought in most armies that were involved. it is just a general enquiry and i am not looking for anyone in particular.
     
  2. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by pol o frithil@Dec 8 2004, 08:17 AM
    to all members,
    i am trying to find out how many irishmen fought in world war 2 . i know that they fought in most armies that were involved. it is just a general enquiry and i am not looking for anyone in particular.
    [post=29981]Quoted post[/post]
    Well, I went straight to the article in Purnell's History of WW2, Volume 1, No. 12, entitled, "Britain Gathers Strength," which has a small section on Irishmen who joined teh British armed forces, and it doesn't give numbers. It does say hordes of them, even from south of the border, joined up. It does mention that Irish press censorship was ludicrous. When HMS Hood was sunk and oen of the officers lost was one with a famous Irish name, the Irish Times reported the death as "due to a boating accident." The other note is the story about the two Irish guys in a foxhole in North Africa, under mortar and machine-gun fire, and they're arguing politics, of course, and one says to the other, "Well, you can say what you like about De Valera, but at least he kept us out of this war..."
     
  3. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    It should be remembered that Ulsterman who fought in WW II were all volunteers, and those from the South were fighting for a country other than their own.

    Cheers, Gerry
     
  4. handtohand22

    handtohand22 Senior Member

    They were all volunteers.
    For WWII there were 80,000 volunteers from Southern Ireland and 38,000 volunteers from Northern Ireland.
    Over 4,500 of the Northern Ireland volunteers were killed in action during WWII. (Adamson, in Marrinan 1986) The same number of casualties (4500 +) for the Ulster Division on the first day of The Battle of the Somme 1914.
     
  5. DirtyDick

    DirtyDick Senior Member

    AB Macginnis (sp?) won the VC for an X-Craft attack on a Jap cruiser in 1945.

    I believe he was a NI Catholic, so his community shunned his reputation until rather recently.

    There was another Irishman (South) who enlisted into the Irish Guards(?) under an assumed name and won the VC in N Africa.

    Richard
     
  6. jamesicus

    jamesicus Senior Member

    My home town of Burnley was involved in a decoy/subterfuge scheme in WW2 as were other locations in Great Britain. The Government literally created "Manchester on the Moors" -- the idea was to build a fake or simulated industrial complex in a remote area, but in close proximity to Manchester and on the Luftwaffe bombing run approach (which Burnley was) thereby enticing the bombardiers to drop their load there.

    A large expanse of desolate moor land to the south of Burnley, in the vicinity of Crown Point, was set aside -- cordoned off and guarded 24 hours a day -- and a good sized mock industrial complex of plywood structures erected. Each of these mockups contained a single electric light bulb and enough discreet chinks were provided to wink an attractive target from the air at night. I believe this elaborate decoy was erected and activated sometime in early 1940.

    The construction, maintenance and guarding was accomplished by a detachment of RAF all of whom were from Ulster, Northern Ireland, who were voluntarily billeted with local residents living on the southern fringes of Burnley. My auntie Clara and uncle Jim Howarth housed two of them in their home at 59 Glen View Road (the government provided special ration allowances -- but that was all) -- A/C Billy Russell and A/C Sidney Watters. They were fine men and became good friends of the family -- including me. Both Billy and Sidney maintained contact with us after the war.

    We didn't know it initially, but Billy was catholic and Sidney was protestant. That wasn't an issue until they had a confrontation over Sidney displaying his Orangeman sash in his room. My auntie smoothed things over in her usual diplomatic way and the incident was soon forgotten. They both remained good friends thereafter.

    BTW, the decoy scheme wasn't very successful -- I only recall a couple of stray bombs being dropped on "Manchester on the Moors" during the entire war. However, the decoy may have confused the aircraft navigators resulting in them dropping their bombs off target.

    James
    Discussion Board
    http://members.boardhost.com/jamesicus/
     
  7. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by pol o frithil@Dec 8 2004, 01:17 PM
    to all members,
    i am trying to find out how many irishmen fought in world war 2 . i know that they fought in most armies that were involved. it is just a general enquiry and i am not looking for anyone in particular.
    [post=29981]Quoted post[/post]


    I have seen a figure of 100.000 southern Irishmen in the services of the British forces during WW2.They were all volunteers of course have regard to Eire's neutrality at the time.

    Reading some notes of RAF service at the time, I found a quote which stated that such servicemen were the envy of the rest as they were the only servicemen who were authorised to wear civilian garb when they went on leave, in their case it was to Eire. The reason being that they would have been interned had had they entered Eire in a British service uniform.

    I would have thought that Northern Ireland manpower would have been conscripted into the British forces during WW2.I think that postwar,The National Service Acts did apply to Northern Ireland as the rest of the UK.

    Perhaps one of the most famous of the southern Irish to serve in the Royal Air Force was Brendan "Paddy" Finucane,DSO and DFC who volunterred when resident in England just before the war.He became a fighter pilot and served in the Battle of Britain to rise to command the Hornchurch Fighter Wing as the youngest Wing Commander in Fighter Command at a 21 year old.He was killed in action on 15 July 1942 when over France on a fighter sweep his Spitfire suffer radiator damage from ground fire causing him to ditch in the Channel.Apparently after making a safe landing in the sea he was unable to get out of the cockpit and went down with his aircraft.

    His memory lingered on at RAF Hornchurch 10 years later.His pet dog was still alive and was allowed the run of the place usually in the vicinity of the Main Guardroom barking out at all coming.

    Recently "Paddy" name was remembered when he had a rose named after him by an English grower and one was planted at a Dublin Irish Air Corps airfield.
     
  8. handtohand22

    handtohand22 Senior Member

    Quote from Harty Ree...I would have thought that Northern Ireland manpower would have been conscripted into the British forces during WW2.

    The British Government refused to include N Ireland in it's Conscription plans. But, it did use another approach.
    In January 1939, the British Government planned it's response to Luftwaffe Blitzkrieg attack. The War Office purchased land across N Ireland and built new Anti Aircraft Unit Training Camps. In Feb '39 it started recruiting officers and in April it started recruiting men to be trained in Anti Aircraft Tactics. This included Searchlight and AA Gun Training.
    These volunteers were classed as Supplimentary Reserves in the Royal Artillery. They all knew a war was imminent and they also knew that as (SR) they would have to report for active service on mobilisation.
    When WWII started, these trained volunteers reported for active service on 2 September 1939.
    These volunteers were classed as Milita, and as such were not entitled to military honours other than campaign medals and MID's. Acts of bravery, in some incidents, were acknowledged by awarding the George Cross.
     
  9. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    On the UK Home Front board, there is an old topic on the Northern Ireland Home guard which is worth reading.
     
  10. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by handtohand22@Jun 12 2005, 01:31 AM
    Quote from Harty Ree...I would have thought that Northern Ireland manpower would have been conscripted into the British forces during WW2.

    The British Government refused to include N Ireland in it's Conscription plans. But, it did use another approach.
    In January 1939, the British Government planned it's response to Luftwaffe Blitzkrieg attack. The War Office purchased land across N Ireland and built new Anti Aircraft Unit Training Camps. In Feb '39 it started recruiting officers and in April it started recruiting men to be trained in Anti Aircraft Tactics. This included Searchlight and AA Gun Training.
    These volunteers were classed as Supplimentary Reserves in the Royal Artillery. They all knew a war was imminent and they also knew that as (SR) they would have to report for active service on mobilisation.
    When WWII started, these trained volunteers reported for active service on 2 September 1939.
    These volunteers were classed as Milita, and as such were not entitled to military honours other than campaign medals and MID's. Acts of bravery, in some incidents, were acknowledged by awarding the George Cross.
    [post=35228]Quoted post[/post]

    Handtohand22,Thanks for clearing that up.

    I have just been reading my call up documentation for evidence that the National Service Act 1948 included Northern Ireland but even post WW2 it appears that conscription was excluded for those in Northern Ireland.For some reason those from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man were also excluded.

    The N.I RAF servicemen that I was aware of in the 1950s must have been volunteers.
     
  11. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Harry Ree@Jun 12 2005, 09:14 AM
    For some reason those from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man were also excluded.
    [post=35235]Quoted post[/post]

    Because their legal staus is such that UK legislation does not apply there. They would have to agree to be included and pass their own legislation.

    In fact, the Channel Islands are at least two separate legal jurisdictions based on Jersey and Guernsey and I would have to check whether Alderney is also separate or under Guernsey for legal purposes.
     
  12. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Irishmen at war? look no further!
    Then take your hat off to the Royal Ulster Rifles, in the Third British Infantry Diviision. Fine soldiers, they were up with the best in the world.......They had a reputation of unflinching advance, even under the most withering enemy fire.

    Great lads. I had the pleasure of sharing the company of their Colonel at the deserted village of Tyneham, followed by a lunch with the same D Day Colonel, that was a year ago in the company of the BBC, Church Knowle, in the Isle of Purbeck.

    Sapper
     
  13. Gibbo

    Gibbo Senior Member

    Originally posted by DirtyDick@Jun 10 2005, 04:53 PM
    AB Macginnis (sp?) won the VC for an X-Craft attack on a Jap cruiser in 1945.

    I believe he was a NI Catholic, so his community shunned his reputation until rather recently.

    There was another Irishman (South) who enlisted into the Irish Guards(?) under an assumed name and won the VC in N Africa.

    Richard
    [post=35196]Quoted post[/post]

    Magennis is the correct spelling of the Irish X-Craft VC winner. Was the man who won the VC after enlisting under an assumed name Lance Corporal Kenneally? He was one of 3 Irish VC winners named by Churchill in his victory speech, when he contrasted the attitudes of the Irish govt. during the war with that of many Irish people. The other two were both sailors awarded the medal posthumously; Capt. Fegen saved a convoy by attacking the Scheer in the armed merchant cruiser Jervis Bay. Lt-Cmdr Esmonde won his medal for leading the Swordfish attack on the Scharnhorst, Gneiseniau & Prince Eugen in 1942 but had earlier led one of the Swordfish attacks on the Bismark.
     
  14. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Magennis and his boss, Lt. Fraser, both got the VC, for blowing off the cruiser Myoko's stern in Singapore harbor. The XE-craft were based out of Manila in the Philippines in 1945, and the Americans weren't too happy about it. They didn't think much of the midget subs. I believe Fraser is still alive.
     
  15. DirtyDick

    DirtyDick Senior Member

    As far as I am aware, Fraser is still alive and lives in south Hampshire: one of my old schoolteachers is pally with him.

    Of course, the X-craft had already seen action against the Tirpitz in 1943, rendering her as U/S for the remainder of the War (although this was not then known, as the attackers were either KIA or captured, and bombing raids were ordered subsequently).

    Richard
     
  16. handtohand22

    handtohand22 Senior Member

    By May 1941 Churchill had to concede in Parliament that the imposition of conscription on N Ireland was “more trouble than it was worth.”
    The source of the “trouble” was Irish Nationalism. At that time, a section of the Roman Catholic community were either supporting or were active Nationalists. In 1939, these individuals were in the middle of a terrorist campaign. By January 1939 there had been over 120 terrorist outrages. This included fatal bombings and shootings in both N Ireland and Great Britain.
    If conscription was applied fairly in order to select a cross section of the community, then the British Army would have Irish terrorists and their sympathisers within its ranks. Both the Roman Catholic Clergy and Irish Nationalist leaders held open meetings throughout Ireland to discuss Conscription. They saw compulsory military service as a degradation of their Nationalist ideals. Conscription, they proposed, would have to be aggressively opposed by all Nationalists.
    Nationalist leaders also proposed that conscription would not be applied fairly. As well as recruiting for a Home Guard and Air Raid Precaution Officers the N Ireland government was recruiting in two other areas. The N Ireland police force and the Special Constabulary needed more officers to cope with the terrorist campaign. Nationalist leaders stated that the Protestant Police Forces would be used to suppress the Nationalist community. Roman Catholics, they intimated, would be forced to join the British Army as replacements for the Protestants recruited by the N Ireland state.
     

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