Irish Vickers Machine Gun 'Pram' Handcart

During the 'Emergency', the Irish Army was using handcarts to move their Vickers machine guns. We've got one in the collection and given its versatility, it seems strange that [EDIT: most] others, including the British Army, didn't adopt something similar.

Since posting this yesterday, I've received quite a bit more information, including its use in the Congo with the Irish UN forces and some great photos of lines of Irish troops in about 1942 moving around the country.

I hope you find it interesting,

 

The US Army had a whole range of similar carts. The first, the M1917, could fit a Vickers, a Browning, or a Lewis. MG carts were still being used by US forces as late as the early 1960s.

 

Yes, I forgot to mention the US cart but I do have one of the manuals for it in the collection here and Robert Segel's book on Machine Gun Support Equipment (EmmaGeeMan's Corner) covers them as he has a full set in his collection. I wasn't aware they were being used as late the 1960s though. Thanks.

 

The British Army had machine gun carts from before the South African War

 

For the Maxim but not seemingly used for the Vickers it seems. Even when they were being used alongside each other at the start of the Great War, the Vickers doesn't make an appearance in them.

 

As the Vickers was lighter than the Maxim it should have been less of a problem. However I think that both guns were broken down into two loads and Maltese Carts used. As some diaries refer to "4 MG Carts" in late 1915 when battalions would have 2 machine guns this makes sense. For long journeys limbered wagons were used. The Maltese carts continued to be used for Lewis guns but the MGC preferred motorised transportation for the Vickers - the Cyclo motor cycle combination for example and later the Ford model T (and even later the Carden Loyd was used for Vickers)

 

Robert,

You're right, using a handcart should have been less of a need because of the lighter Vickers, but there was a role for the handcart as an interim to mechanisation - the British Army appears to have leapt straight to mechanisation from the limbered wagons. I'd be interested to see the reference to "4 MG Carts" as it's not something I've come across. The limbered wagons were in two parts and capable of carrying two guns so there may be some confusion here. By late 1915 the battalions had increased their machine gun sections to four guns anyway and some were already forming Brigade Machine Gun Companies ahead of their transfer to the Machine Gun Corps.

I'm not aware of any evidence to show the Vickers being carried in Maltese Carts - the Lewis cart was a bespoke item. If the gun is carried separately to the tripod then it is man-carried quite easily. The Limbered Wagons were the standard form of transport from the Vickers' introduction right through to around 1936 with the introduction of the 15-cwt truck. Once they had got as far forward as possible, the guns would either be carried by the men or the fighting stores taken forward on pack-saddlery for which the complete stores were carried in the wagons.

Only the Motor Branch of the Machine Gun Corps used the Clyno motor cycles: both the Cavalry and Infantry branches (the vast majority of the Corps) used the limbered wagons. The Ford Model T was used by the Light Armoured Motor Batteries that formed part of the Machine Gun Corps (Motors).

 

Whilst it is true that 2 men could pull a Maltese Cart they were normally drawn by a horse or mule so I'm not sure I would consider them a handcart.

Could we have a reference or photograph for this. The information I have is that when Maxims were deployed in a mobile role they were horse drawn.
Machine Guns in the Boer War

Tim

 

Forage Cart Mk 1 which could be used with both man and animal draught was fitted with leather straps and buckles which allowed a Maxim to be secured. Some cyclist battalions also had carts that could be pulled by cyclists

 

Following the main video, I found a clip I hadn't included and I've added a clip of the different type of handcart that we haven't restored yet. I think it's probably a mortar cart but would welcome others' views. In the video, I talk about Robert Segel's book, which can be ordered from EmmaGeeMan's Corner


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The American M-3A4 Utility Hand Cart. had fittings to allow it to be used for either mortar or medium machine gun transport and some do appear to have been "borrowed" by British glider forces in Normandy. The cart was also used in Korea

 

No pictures or links to articles - would like to see some

TD

 

https://olive-drab.com/images/id_m3a4_utilityhardcart_700_10.jpg

 

Hello Richard,

Would you consider the Airborne handcart, as used by the 1st Airlanding Brigade from North Africa to Holland, as a "missing link" within the "leapt straight to mechanisation from the limbered wagons" period? (Extract below from "Glider Pilots In Sicily" by Mike Peters, and a many times used photo from Arnhem by way of illustration).

I'll admit that they weren't used exclusively for the Vickers, but they were used to transport the Vickers (amongst many other bits of kit!) Hence will understand if you should see fit for them to be discounted given their jack-of-all-trades usage (But they could be a topic for a follow up video maybe, or is that being too cheeky?)

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

It wasnt that hard was it - so much easier to see it - just like the "a picture paints a thousand words" - only one problem now, we will be expecting more photos and links in your next posts

TD

 

Hi Jim,

Quite simply, if I had an airborne handcart, I'd put it in a video. Sadly, I don't.

What I would say though is that my leap to mechanisation statement pre-dates the development of airborne forces, i.e. in the mid-1930s. The jump to 15-cwt. trucks and even Universal Carriers happened before MMGs became part of parachute or airlanding battalions.

There were both handcart and jeep borne MMG platoons in airlanding battalions it seems so I'd love to have one in the collection here but it's unlikely to warrant the investment if we saw one come up for sale.

You might get a video on airlanding use of the Vickers at some point though. It's a display the Association has done alongside CHALK Living History and the Glider Pilot Regiment Society before -> https://vickersmg.wordpress.com/about/displays/flywheel-festival-2017/

All the best

Rich

 

US forces had handcarts for machine guns as early as 1917. They appear to have come in two descriptions 1917 wheeled machine gun and 1917 machine gun cart
http://www.handcartz.com/files/654831231_w8Fhz-L.jpg
and they had a series of carts after that as I said up until the Korean War.

 

blimey a post with a link in it - I need to lie down in a dark room

TD

 

Yes, TTH highlighted that in a previous post and I acknowledge that I didn't mention those in that video. I think I might have done in the follow-up clip as I discuss Robert Segel's book in that. The handcarts the US use seem to be able to be towed by mules as well, which these Irish handcarts weren't.